Topic: Best approach for music & video?

[taylorc]

Ideally, I would like for all of my components (audio & video) to be controlled through one central location, but have each pass through their proper sources to achieve the best sound.  However, the top priority is optimal sound for music and video.

I have friends that listen to their music through tube amps (2-channel) and have a separate solid-state receiver (& speakers) for 5.1 A/V.  I experience 2-channel music and 5.1+ sound for video in the same setting.  I'm hoping to integrate the two into one setup without sacrifice.

One way to look at it...fewer remotes (i.e...one)!

Any suggestions?

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm sure Nick'll point you in this direction anyway. 

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=24645.0

[scervin]

Only advice I will give is this, head out and listen to as much as you can!  Buy the best speakers you can afford and go from there.  Search audiogon as well, once you have found a speaker you like.

[taylorc]

Modified the original post for a more specific question.

[jpschust]

i run all solid state in my living room and it sounds fantastic, however ive mixed and with the right combo it can sound great.  it all depends on what you are looking for and how much you want to spend

[taylorc]

I'm seeing a lot of options.  I've really enjoyed this: http://www.devotionsbyerik.com/E-Cinema.htm

I'm not up for spending a "wide open" amount of $ (the numbers could go through the roof), but I am not looking to cut corners.  Performance comes before price.

With that said, I like the idea of my two main channels running through a tube amp for listening to music.  That's easy.  The challenge is incorporating the theater setup around it (considering tube amps aren't on/off...on/off toys).  I'm hoping to pick up on some tips and clues for the rest of the speakers...

Go with a completely separate setup for the 5.1+ (with 5 speakers - not including the two main tube powered ones)
Run the two tube powered speakers for music and video, but power the center and rears separately
Other?

I'm constantly searching around for ideas in order to find a direction, but thought I'd speak up on the subject to see what feedback I could get.

Thanks for the input...

[BC]

Run the two tube powered speakers for music and video, but power the center and rears separately

I would think this would be the best and simplest solution

[sygdwm]

that wouldnt sound uneven for lack of a better term? i would suggest a tube pre, big amp, 2 bad ass towers w/ a sub or two. and a get mid-fi 5.1 all in one job that everyone makes. thats my dream system anyway.

[Lee]

Why not get a good 5 channel receiver that has pre outs for all the channels?  Then you could run a passive center channel and passive rears through the onboard amps and run the tube amp off the preamp outputs on the front mains.  I've been really happy with my B&K solid state preamp (it's 2 channel, though), and I hear Denon makes good ones in 5.1 and 7.1 as well.

That also leaves room to upgrade amplifiers for the center and rears as your budget allows (if you choose to go that way).

Just a thought...

Edit: I have a B&K PT3 Series II, and I imagine the B&K AVR507 sounds very similar in 5 channel.

[taylorc]

...Then you could run a passive center channel and passive rears through the onboard amps and run the tube amp off the preamp outputs on the front mains...

That was my way of thinking to begin with...until I was told, "Don't know how much damage that solid state receiver does until we try it.  Probably ok until you get into 'very' high resolution systems."  ...In reference to the idea of running, say...the Denon AVR-5805 as you suggested above.

Top priority is the two-channel music.  Then building the theater system around it.  Even if it is feasible, not sure where I'm taking myself looking into mixing tubes & solid-state sound.

Thanks for the ideas...

[heath]

I'm sure Nick'll point you in this direction anyway. 

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=24645.0

i just recently went in this direction and I love it so far....

[/fluff]

[jpschust]

i listened to the denon stuff and i used to own a 5803 and honestly, for a little bit more money you can find some macintosh stuff out there that is 5.1 and 6.1 (read the mx-134).  The clarity of this processor is unparalleled.  I have it paired with a mac 206, which is a 6 channel amp.  It is the closest thing to a grace v3 ive heard on the playback front.  clean, clear, warm, wonderful tone, unbelievable representation, and takes for fucking ever to set up the controls :-)

[taylorc]

Have put a lot of hours of research into it...many more ahead of me.  I'm upgrading my speakers as well.  Straight 8's http://www.bottlehead.com/straight%208/straight_8.htm were of interest, but they're out of production.  I've been looking around, but wanted to see if anyone could offer some "guidance".  I expect to move twice in the next 18 months, so I won't really be able to do an in-home audition.

Some of my interests (regarding speakers) are: Large room with a listening distance of 10+ feet, 75% of use for two-channel music, (two mains, center, 2-4 rear/sides, & still searching for the benefits of two subs).  Would like to keep it all under one make. 

Looking for speakers with plenty of air, separation of instruments, and a natural representation of the audio.  Ran Schoeps>AD-1000 for years, so I like my music to sound as natural as possible.  The follow-up factor would be how the speakers lend themselves to video.  Input welcomed...

[jpschust]

as per speakers i listened to a lot before i bought.  my favorites, far and above, were the b and w nautilus series.  it isnt cheap, but they are good moderately priced audiophile speakers.  the only speakers i really loved more, and were much more expensive, are the wilson watt puppies

[Craig T]

Ran Schoeps>AD-1000 for years, so I like my music to sound as natural as possible. 

oxymoron 

[scervin]

What is your budget?

[taylorc]

What is your budget?

Kind of hard to put an actual figure out there, but for two mains, center, sub, two or four rear/sides, and pre-amp & amp(s), I want to keep it under $10k.

Ran Schoeps>AD-1000 for years, so I like my music to sound as natural as possible. 

oxymoron 

nah.  not at all.  schoeps>lunatec...that would be an oxymoron.

[scervin]

For that budget you have many options. 

Processor:
Anthem AVM-20 ($1800-2000 used)-
-Good 2 channel through Analog Direct (assuming nice transport and external DAC)
-near best for movies
-Anthem has modular design for continuous hard/software upgrades

Sherwood Newcastle 965 ($1500)-
-Reports say this is best buy for the money


Emotiva ($3000)
-based on Sunfire Theater Grand core
-upgraded 2 channel performance
-reports are that this is very nice for music
-lacks a few features

Amp:
Sherbourn used 7 channel ($1600 used, $2000 new)
-monoblock design

Emotiva ($2K)
-monoblock design
-talk about 5 channel version

Any used 7 channel amp ($2K)

Speakers:
B&W 700 series (never heard them)  $5K depending on which ones and how many
B&W 800 series (803, 805, HTM) $7K
Onix Ref package (Ref 2, Ref 1, Ref 100)  $4K
Paradigm Studio line
Von SChweikert (VR4jr, LCR15, TS-150, VS sub) $6K
Onix Rocket (RS750, RSC200, RS250) $2500
Onix Rocket (Rs1000, RSC200, RS250) $3500-3800?
Energy Veritas line  $6K
many many many more!

Subs (fot HT):
SVS PB2-ISD $900
SVS PB2-plus $1200
SVS PB1-plus $1100 great sub with parametric eq built in, more cosmetic options
So many more, Earthquake, Adire, REL, HSU, etc.  Depends on room and desired placement (must be in corner or not)

Subs (music)
REL $2-3K??? used

Just don't forget
cables- $1000
Power conditioner- PS Audio $1-2K
Surge - Brickwall (no MOV's) 20A version is $600

I think I remember you saying more listening falls into music.  I'd get some really nice floostanders that go low and use these for the music. Some go the monitor sub route and there is nothing wrong with that, but I prefer to use large speaker because they look cool   What I listed is just few to get started and get an idea on prices.  I personally would start with a 5-channel system and add later on.  It will save you a fe $$$ up front and there really aren't many 7.1 movies out currently. I've heard DPLIIx and it is nice FYI.  Also, don't for get room treatments.  What are the dimensions of the room?  Basement? Windows?  What type of display are you using?

SC

[jpschust]

wanted to throw a few other things in there

for cables, im of the opinion that www.bettercables.com cannot be beat for price and quality. 

additionally, i hated the b&w 700 series after listening to the 800 series.  cymbals on the 700 series sounded grainy and awkward to me. 

As per subs, don't forget velodyne (the DD series).  great subs, quick and punchy.

one site with great pricing and great information is www.acousticsounds.com.  my turntable came from them and i consult with them about a lot.  don't focus on their prices on the site, they will play with those for you on larger orders.

[taylorc]

Processor: Anthem AVM-20

scervin, thanks for the lists.  The Anthem AVM's really grab my attention.  I'm probably going tube-amp for my front 3.  Any suggestions for powering the rear two (& two sides)?

for cables, im of the opinion that www.bettercables.com cannot be beat for price and quality. 

I had been eyeing http://www.catcables.com/.  Thanks for the link...the bettercables look good.

[scervin]

I'm not sure about a tube amp for HT....  I've never really liked it.  It just didn't have the slam and lacked something.  but if system is mainly 2 channel that is another story. 

[jpschust]

i have an amp i would suggest- the belles 150a.  the thing smokes.  i actually have one that ive been thinking about selling and if you would want to demo it and decided you didnt like it, all id ask is that you pay shipping

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

  I'm probably going tube-amp for my front 3.  Any suggestions for powering the rear two (& two sides)?

If you want both slam and tubes, get front mains that can be bi-wired.  Get a SS amp for the lower driver and drive the mid/tweeter with tubes.  Of course, there are some tube amps like the Premier 8 that will give you all the slam you'll ever need. 

If you want a tubey sound, you can get CJ MV50s relatively inexpensive (~600) or an MV52.  The MV50 drips tubey warmth and goodness.   The sonograph SS stuff is relatively inexpensive.  I don't know that you need tubes all around.  I would think that the rears and center, being reenforcement, would do well with SS.  Get your tube blend from the upper mains where it will be most dominant. 

One thing that I would highly recommend is to get your tube and SS amps from the same manufacturer or get amps that share a characteristic sound.  Get all your speakers from the same manufacturer.  Integrating divergent sounding gear might not be as satisfying as you would like. 

I've been through a few Conrad Johnson pieces.  I really fucked up selling my MF2300a.  I have a Premier 11a but if I had the forethought I would have kept the 2300a for just what I describe using the 2300a down low and the 11a up top.  The 11a isn't very tubey so the match would be good.  That pair might put 5 channels out of your range though. 

[taylorc]

I'm not sure about a tube amp for HT....  I've never really liked it.  It just didn't have the slam and lacked something.  but if system is mainly 2 channel that is another story. 

I won't be going the mass-market route for a tube amp.  I'm working with a small-business manufacturer that has made amps for a number of tapers/friends.  Knows his stuff...otherwise I wouldn't meddle with tubes.

i have an amp i would suggest- the belles 150a.  the thing smokes.  i actually have one that ive been thinking about selling and if you would want to demo it and decided you didnt like it, all id ask is that you pay shipping

CAD, thanks for the offer, but I haven't reached that stage yet.  I have a clearer vision for a processor, main+center amp.  Just need to sort through everything and find a solution for the rear+sides.

I don't know that you need tubes all around.  I would think that the rears and center, being reenforcement, would do well with SS.  Get your tube blend from the upper mains where it will be most dominant. 

One thing that I would highly recommend is to get your tube and SS amps from the same manufacturer or get amps that share a characteristic sound.  Get all your speakers from the same manufacturer.  Integrating divergent sounding gear might not be as satisfying as you would like. 

I'm headed in that direction.  The rear+sides will be solid-state.  Additionally, as you pointed out, if going with the Anthem AVM-30, I would think the back four channels would be better suited with an Anthem amp.  Ideal wpc for rear & side channels?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Additionally, as you pointed out, if going with the Anthem AVM-30, I would think the back four channels would be better suited with an Anthem amp.  Ideal wpc for rear & side channels?

Talk to your Anthem rep.  When matching the ancillary channels to the mains, you need to consider the efficiency of all the speakers and the amount of tuning that you can do at the surround processor.  The rep should be able to guide you.  Maybe you can find someone who has done it before and has a reference system.  My guess would be that the mid and rear would require less power than the mains, but there are alot of multi-channel amps out there with the same power on all outputs.

[taylorc]

...you have many options. 

Where do Krell & Sunfire fall into line (w/processors)?  I see a lot of them around. 

Better yet, what's to consider as the defining difference(s) in processors?

[Lee]

phoam-

Are you in Alabama, or just a tide fan?

(just curious)

-Lee

[scb]

>>Von SChweikert (VR4jr, LCR15, TS-150, VS sub) $6K
<<

the vr-2s can be great fronts and a grand+ cheaper

[taylorc]

Are you in Alabama, or just a tide fan?

Both.

[Wes]

Where do Krell & Sunfire fall into line (w/processors)?  I see a lot of them around. 

Better yet, what's to consider as the defining difference(s) in processors?

Krell and Sunfire are considered by most audiophiles as "reference".  They are expensive and have very little compromises in regard to cost.  I have a Krell Showcase, so I can comment on it..  The D>A is absolutely FANTASTIC.  Unrivaled by anything I've ever heard.  The only significant complaint I have about it is that the volume gain is too dramatic.  It can be hard to find the perfect listening level.

I think some of the most important things to look at in processors are (in no particular order)
1.the d>a stage
2.supported formats
3.upgrade ability
4.Video stage
5.Dual or more zone control (for whole house applications, etc..)
6.Remote

[scb]

while wes pimps his krell, i'll say that arcam makes some great stuff too

[Tim]

Are you in Alabama, or just a tide fan?

Both.

Taylor - you got any old Phish masters you want seeded lemme know... and tell Cheez I said hi!

- Tim Markham

[taylorc]

Taylor - you got any old Phish masters you want seeded lemme know... and tell Cheez I said hi!

Hey there, Tim.  I don't have any old masters that need seeding.  I had planned to seed quite a bit from 97>00 (sources that aren't circulating...Lemonwheel BTP's for one), but my last deck's signal transfer was shot.  Gotta pick up a new deck at some point.  Someone needs to get those 'wheel 21>sax>adk's out there though.  The "dankseeds" don't compare.

Haven't seen Cheez since Coventry (right after I got engaged).  Will definitely be catching up with him for some October moe.

[jpschust]

im telling you, don't forget mcintosh labs

[Wiggler]

I've been thinking about going back to a multi channel setup for video.
Hearing good things about the new Cinema 5 & 6 Cary components for the money.

http://www.caryaudio.com/

[Tim]

Taylor - you got any old Phish masters you want seeded lemme know... and tell Cheez I said hi!

Hey there, Tim.  I don't have any old masters that need seeding.  I had planned to seed quite a bit from 97>00 (sources that aren't circulating...Lemonwheel BTP's for one), but my last deck's signal transfer was shot.  Gotta pick up a new deck at some point.  Someone needs to get those 'wheel 21>sax>adk's out there though.  The "dankseeds" don't compare.

Haven't seen Cheez since Coventry (right after I got engaged).  Will definitely be catching up with him for some October moe.

congratulations TC!

keep in touch...

[taylorc]

Anthem and McIntosh are appealing, but what if there is an interest in throwing in a multi-zone setup in the future?  Any input on what to consider?  Once settled, speakers throughout the house is a goal.

[jpschust]

my McIntosh stuff allots for two zones via the receiver and I know it is capable of more zones.

[scervin]

Get an Anthem D1 as I think it will do 4 zones??  Not that you can listen to music in that many rooms at once.  Many will do 2 rooms.  I know AVM30 has at least 2 zones, but only 1 digital source can be used.

SC

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

By "zones" do you mean speaker pair outputs or the ability to control volume in each room independently?

[taylorc]

By "zones" do you mean speaker pair outputs or the ability to control volume in each room independently?

For now it's just outputs to separate rooms.  Volume control may be down the road.

[taylorc]

Get an Anthem D1 as I think it will do 4 zones??  Not that you can listen to music in that many rooms at once.  Many will do 2 rooms.  I know AVM30 has at least 2 zones, but only 1 digital source can be used.

Jonny, scervin, thanks for all the input...

For a main processor, the Anthem AVM-30 has had my attention.  Either I've been blind to it, or Anthem has recently launched their Statement site: http://statement.anthemav.com/.  Will have to do more research, but on the surface, the D1 appears identical to the AVM-30?

As for multi-zone, it's not something I've spent a lot time with...just an area that will be of interest in the future and doesn't need to be neglected at this stage.  The majority of listening is done in one room/setting (like most others), but outputting music to a number of areas around the house has been a goal for quite some time (w/no telling how intensive it could get...volume controls, etc.).  Have friends that literally "built their house around their music".  ...Good stuff.

[jpschust]

like that guy who turned his whole floor into a sub?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

By "zones" do you mean speaker pair outputs or the ability to control volume in each room independently?

For now it's just outputs to separate rooms.  Volume control may be down the road.

If you are willing to accept decent but less than audiophile sound in your remote zones, you might consider getting some remote speakers that take an rf signal via the AC house wiring.  For the majority of background sound applications, they will work very well.  Basicly, you take a line out from your preamp or reciever and put that to a box that modulates both channels onto your house wiring as RF.  Then you place speakers whereever you want in the house.  Each speaker then has channel selector (L or R) and a relative level setting.  The speakers have built in amplifiers and receive the feed of the AC mains.

I have heard one version these in action and they were quite acceptable for sound around the house.  In the specific case I heard them, they were on the same circuit as the source.  They are advertised to work on any circuit across the mains panel but I can't confirm that.  Also, I don't know what sort of issues that they might introduce wrt noise in the AC.

If you are interested, I can find out which ones I heard.

[scervin]

If you are looking into home automation, I'd check some custom installers.  They will have the 6 zone switch boxes and the like.  When I remember the company, I will send along the info for a 12 channel amp.... Knoll systems is it, check out their site at knollsystems.com  They are a company for installers.  The products they sell are HQ.  The projectors are simply rebadged Infocus.  My neighbor was able to convince the builder to let him do all the electric work and he set up his house to the max.  He put in security cameras, 12 CAT-5 lines, and speakers throughout the house.  Problem is he  has to listen to the same thing throughout.  The Anthems will give you the ability to listen to different sources, again one may be a digital signal and the other must be over analog.  So if you want to rock out in your room while the wife or someone else listens while doing dishes, cleaning, etc you can do such.  My next house will be setup like this, can't stand listening to Hit List while working outside.

While the AVM30 and Statement D1 look similar they are quite different.  The D1 has dual Moto processors, 192kHz upsample on all sources (maybe just CD's??), and a $5k price tag to name a few.