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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: moth170 on October 14, 2010, 10:57:04 PM
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I want to set up a low-tech taping system with a netbook for coffee houses and other small shows for taping on short notice and lower cost, low profile. I want to use the mic input on an Acer netbook, recording with Goldwave (unless you know of a USB based system).
1) What mic system would you recommend for this application? That is,what would work well with a small computer mic input or USB?
Thanks for any and all of your thoughts.
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I want to set up a low-tech taping system with a netbook for coffee houses and other small shows for taping on short notice and lower cost, low profile. I want to use the mic input on an Acer netbook, recording with Goldwave (unless you know of a USB based system).
1) What mic system would you recommend for this application? That is,what would work well with a small computer mic input or USB?
There are a few unknown factors here.
1. What's your budget? More dough = better quality obviously.
2. What do you define as low profile? With a netbook on the table in front of you, you'd obviously have to tape open. That makes it kinda pointless going for stealthy mics just for the sake of stealth.
I'd advise against using mic input on most laptops. The ADC is usually substandard.
Like you suggested, get an external USB sound card, ideally with 2 x P48 powering for your mics.
If you just want the cheapest, ART USB Dual Pre sells for $69 new.
Otherwise, Fast Track Pro, the new version of M-Audio Mobile Pre, PreSonus AudioBox and various models of Edirol UA series are proven gear with USB...
One of ADK's tech staff used to sell A51s mics for really cheap (like $100-150 for a pair incl ring mounts). You could mail him and ask what he has in store:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=126423.msg1683014#msg1683014
You'd also have to calculate for mounts, bar and clamp for your mics...
Alltogether, this system would probably set you back $250 or so. Don't know if it qualifies as a low cost?!
Otherwise, if you want rock bottom prices, you can get a matched pair of Behringer C2 or C4 mics for just around $50:
http://www.djtoys.com/behringer-c2-2x-matched-studio-condenser-microphones-c-2.html
http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=C4
I'm not saying that these are great mics, but it'll get you started and you can upgrade once you have more money...
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I want to set up a low-tech taping system with a netbook for coffee houses and other small shows for taping on short notice and lower cost, low profile.
As sunjan mentioned, its impossible to tape low profile with a laptop. He gave great advice for low cost options to tape with your laptop, but I would strongly consider getting a dedicated recorder and stealth mics. A lap top is kind of a hassle to tape with, even if you can go open.
I would consider getting a Tascam DR-07 (or even a used iRiver H120 set up with Rockbox) and a Church Audio mic & battery box. If taping stuff that isn't loud, as might be the case in a coffee shop, you would do better to replace the battery box with a ST-9100 preamp.
For the rest of Oct. you could get a Church Audio CA-14 set of mics (your choice cards or omnis for $199 with free shipping (normally $24 from Canada). I guess the DR-07 can be had for $120-$130 if you look around. These are quality mics and preamp, worth well more than the asking price.
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(http://www.ninds.nih.gov/img/mice.jpg)
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Thanks for your input! That's great. You're in the ballpark of my budget. By low profile I meant someplace people were OK with taping, but wouldn't be crazy about some big setup. Something that could be set up on a table. I'm wondering why you think a Tascam would be so much better than a netbook (mine has an 8.5 inch screen, pretty compact). It has great storage and I can process and upload the file on the spot. Goldwave has a nice interface as well. But I've never used a Tascam, so I have nothing to compare too.
Yeah, I like the idea of levels we can upgrade too. Our last rig was just an Optimus cassete recorder with built in twin mics. We just kept it in the car to record a show in a pinch, but it was also stealthy to bring into non taper show. But you can imagine the quality:
http://www.archive.org/details/shim2005-02-19.flac
http://www.archive.org/details/shim2006-05-26.flac
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People around here tend to take taping (and gear) VERY seriously, and the paradigm of "whatever I can do on the cheap with what I have is good enough" is pretty uncommon around here. It's kind of like talking to a bunch of hard core drag racers about putting a performance exhaust on your Ford Escort... They will say "quit screwing around and get yourself a real car".
Check out www.soundprofessionals.com and on Ebay for "Church Audio". If you run a set of their mics into your laptop you should get some sound. Will you be happy with it? Maybe, maybe not. Adding a preamp, and a better recorder with a better A/D will help a lot. Some people think you should just jump to that point immediately.
Most small mics are "electret condenser" mics, which means then need a few (3-9) volts to power them. Perhaps your netbook supplies that power to the "mic in" jack, but it's not a sure thing. Easiest way to check is to get a 1/8" stereo mic cable with male on both ends. Plug one end into the netbook, and use a voltmeter on the other end to see if there is some voltage from the tip to the barrel. If you don't have that voltage, then you will need a battery box or preamp to the chain to provide that power.
At a coffee house, I can envision someone using a netbook and no one thinking twice about it. The fact that he has a set of mics that kind of look like earbuds... nobody is going to think twice about that either.
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I'm wondering why you think a Tascam would be so much better than a netbook (mine has an 8.5 inch screen, pretty compact).
From a sound quality perspective comparing mic in on both devices, I'd expect the dedicated recorder to have considerably lower noise floor, cleaner gain and better AD. PIP voltage is probably higher too, if you want to run your mics without separate powering.
Tascam/Iriver/[other stealth recorders] are pocketable and invisible to anyone except yourself, with the right mics (Church combo has been mentioned).
With an 8,5" screen shining throughout the gig, there's always a risk of drunken wooks disturbing you, or boneheaded security flexing muscles, even if you have permission.
But if instant upload and editing is important for you, by all means go ahead and use the netbook. Just 5-7 years back, lappy taping was the way to go, and it's still possible to get some great pulls under the right circumstances.
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I understand that you want to use the computer since you already have it but a computer, specifically a netbook, is not designed primarily for audio recording and that is why you see more options and suggestions for recorders, pre-amps, and microphones.
I would do Joe's suggestion and see what kind of power the netbook has with the mic input. once you tell us that, we can better assist with what mics. unless your already have cables, clamps, stands, sunjan is right in the fact that you'll need to budget for that equipment as well.
for the software, I like and use audacity but you seem to favor the goldwave a lot.
Don't be discouraged by these recommendations and if you just want to use a mic used for skype for a little while, then do so. no harm and you'll get practice on goldwave and you'll figure out if the laptop situation can work at a coffeehouse.
many of the people here have been collecting various microphones, pre-amps, recorders, cables, etc for many years and they once had to start off like you did.
good luck.
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I understand that you want to use the computer since you already have it but a computer, specifically a netbook, is not designed primarily for audio recording and that is why you see more options and suggestions for recorders, pre-amps, and microphones.
Yeah, you'll will probably want to use a notebook with some decent processing power. Good luck trying to use an audio editing program on a netbook (not that it can't be done)... ;)
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My $0.02: get a dedicated recorder. At home, I tried hooking my SP-TFB-2 binaural mics directly to my Aspire One netbook, and found the result to be dreadfully noisy.
As for USB interfaces, the E-MU 0404 USB is not suitable for the netbook (or any laptop I've tried), unless you like clicks and pops in your audio. It works beautifully on my desktop, but it's a lost cause with laptops. Aside from that, it also uses a separate wall wart for power, where most other USB preamps can be powered from the USB port itself.
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2408/2152510130_2a877aa305.jpg)
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Thanks for your astute contributions qpl. Some may have thought the first one was funny and I'm sure even moth170 took it as a joke, but doing it a 2nd time after a bunch of informed & helpful posts have been added is uncalled for and a total waste of space. The guy is here looking for help, not to be insulted because he made a typo.
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Check out www.soundprofessionals.com and on Ebay for "Church Audio".
I recommend Church gear as well. You can check out some of his stuff on E-Bay or his website, but don't buy it from there. Much of his stuff is not listed there and he gives a discount to taperssection members. Research his gear on this site including here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136212.0
and buy by sending him a PM here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=14500
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Another thing to keep in mind is that, more often than not, the microphone input on a laptop/notebook is mono and not stereo.
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Thanks for your astute contributions qpl. Some may have thought the first one was funny and I'm sure even moth170 took it as a joke, but doing it a 2nd time after a bunch of informed & helpful posts have been added is uncalled for and a total waste of space. The guy is here looking for help, not to be insulted because he made a typo.
just have a problem with bad spelling, I thought it was funny, so terribly fucking sorry you don't ::)
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....and back to the original question...
I looked into this a couple years ago, thinking I'd work something with my Asus eee. Some lessons I learned:
The mic inputs are really crap. Unless you can somehow internally change them to line inputs, you're going to be putting the signal through a really piss poor amp and you'll be adding a lot of noise. Not to mention very little dynamic range in your recording (which means at any given volume, the soft sounds are inaudible and the loud sounds cause overload). I tried running my CChurch preamp into the mic in, and it made a significant improvement, but even then, a lot of noise was added. People were looking to crack open the eee and try resoldering the leads since it looked like the soundcard used had a line-in option, but I never followed up to see if that was done.
So, the first question I had was how to get the signal into the computer. One alternative is to use a PCMCIA card, but since you referenced a netbook, I'm guessing this is not an option. The mic in is sucktastic, so that's out. That leaves the USB. There are a number of USB-in solutions that people have referenced, and they range pretty dramatically in price depending on the mics you plan to use. Some are a combo of preamp and DAC, and there are a number of all-in-one solutions, mics with built in preamp and dac that just plug into a USB port. I tried these out:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MicPortPro/ - worked pretty good, decent noise level, ran 100% off USB, but could never get two to work at once (stereo) - I think the USB bus was not wide enough to handle 2x 24/96 signals. It would run 48v phantom mics. At $150 bucks each ($300 for stereo) might be more than you want.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Snowflake/ - looked like a good solution, but the case was metal so very heavy. I forget if I was ever able to run 2 at once though to get stereo, but I don't think I did. There was something about how the two devices conflicted or something. Wiser USB-heads tham mine might have prevailed though. If you're OK with mon, this moght work.
I'd do search on USB stereo microphome and see what you get. Here's Sweetwater's list, for reference: http://www.sweetwater.com/c981--USB_Mics
Something like this might fit the bill, but I have no idea about sound quality:
http://www.amazon.com/Apex-Apex188-Condenser-Microphone-Shockmount/dp/tech-data/B001E0DDLI/ref=de_a_smtd
Good luck!
Mike
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Another thing to keep in mind is that, more often than not, the microphone input on a laptop/notebook is mono and not stereo.
Depending on submodel, Acer Aspire One is reported to be stereo:
http://forums.ncix.com/forums/?mode=showthread&forum=107&threadid=1793242&pagenumber=0&msgcount=1&subpage=1&product_id=30747#top
That said, I'd be very cautious about throwing money at expensive frontend gear for lappy taping before asserting that your backend is noise-free. This thread indicates that Acer netbooks have serious hardware issues bogging down sound quality:
http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/2163/acer-aspire-one-too-much-hiss-when-recording-in-audacity/&rct=j&sa=U&ei=hjjATIjuNMv0sgaRxpnjCA&ved=0CCgQFjAF&q=Acer+Aspire+One+mic+input&usg=AFQjCNF9zc13R93sDqrkPwSC5FQdNw21Ng
Maybe you can borrow an external USB soundcard from a friend and test your potential rig at home first? Or find a retailer that accepts open returns within a certain time frame?
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Thanks for your astute contributions qpl. Some may have thought the first one was funny and I'm sure even moth170 took it as a joke, but doing it a 2nd time after a bunch of informed & helpful posts have been added is uncalled for and a total waste of space. The guy is here looking for help, not to be insulted because he made a typo.
just have a problem with bad spelling, I thought it was funny, so terribly fucking sorry you don't ::)
I didn't get what that was about until he spelled it out. God, those things are disgusting.
So much great info here, thank you all so much- lots to research and digest.
Peace,
S
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I'd make sure the netbook can handle high rez audio, because they don't work for sh*t with HD video, other than using the SD slot to dump what you've already recorded. You definitely can't watch it though.
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i reguarly multi track (44.1 32 bit) on my netbook.
granted, its in a live setting, and i only use it to capture (i do the processing/tweaking on my home computer).
you might be suprised....some of the atom processors benchmark around the same or better than a pentium 4.
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I'd make sure the netbook can handle high rez audio, because they don't work for sh*t with HD video
Strictly from a processing power viewpoint, laptops have been able to record in at least 16/44 since 1996-1997.
It's more a matter of keeping the Windows installation clean and not cluttering it with other software.
If bandwidth and the footprint of your audio tool is an issue, downgrading the software to a lower version might even help. There are still lappy tapers using CEP 1.0 since wayback then.
If your netbook still has issues with audio, it's usually poor hardware design (shielding etc) or cheap components (line in jack, ADC...). Don't blame the CPU.
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I didn't say a netbook won't work, I said to make sure it does. While I haven't tried any of mine with audio, they suck with video.
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What about a battery-powered mixer with a USB out? Doesn't Tascam make one? That's not exactly low-profile, though.
Personally, I love mice and have had many as pets. Keep the pics coming!
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Thanks, this is all great stuff. I'll give another example to help narrow things down:
I have been going to these trainings that I pay a lot of money for, part of the time there is a faculty member lecturing, with a mic mounted on his chest and amplified through a small PA. We have been forbidden to record the lectures, which is BS because we pay a butload for the trainings. If I had a recorder set-up I wouldn't be able to pull it off. But everyone has laptops out, so no one would notice my netbook running goldwave if I could find the right mics that were stealthy, but could pick up the signal over the room noise. It may be too much to ask. This is a conference room with about 30-40 people in it.
I'm not sure if I want the stealth system to do it all, or if I would have a secondary rig for places where it was OK to record.
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I have no experience with this but it may work:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-MMM-1
or this usb one:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-COURT-REPORTER-MIC-PRO
are you sure a netbook can run goldwave?
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are you sure a netbook can run goldwave?
GoldWave requires a minimum 1.5GHz Pentium 4 (or compatible processor), a mouse, 256MB of RAM, 20MB of disk space, and a sound card. For best performance, a 2GHz or faster processor with 512MB of RAM or more is recommended. Windows 2000, XP, Vista, 7, or later is required. Older versions of Windows will not run recent versions of GoldWave, but you can install GoldWave v4.26 on those systems:
•Runs on Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000
•Minimum system requirements:
◦100MHz processor
◦32MB RAM
◦10MB hard drive space available
◦Video card running at 16-bit or 32-bit colour
Taken from http://www.goldwave.com/faq.php#requirements
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Otherwise, there's always Audacity:
Windows version - Recommended - Minimum
Windows 98, ME: 128 MB / 500 MHz - 64 MB / 300 MHz
Windows 2000, XP: 512 MB/1 GHz - 128 MB/300 MHz
Windows Vista Home Basic: 2 GB / 1 GHz - 512 MB / 1 GHz
Windows Vista Home Premium/Business/Ultimate: 4 GB / 2 GHz - 1 GB / 1 GHz
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Goldwave works great on my netbook. I use it frequently.