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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Charlies on August 11, 2005, 05:24:47 PM
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From the usual ots spots in smaller to medium-sized clubs (e.g., 930 Club) I've been not too impressed lately with the stereo spread/image running hypers DINa or DIN, so last night I ran ck63s in the Kwon NOS bar at Ramshead Live in Balt for Ratbob (awesome btw). I really dig the image and there's no hole-in-the-middle. I guess the hole-in-the-middle is an issue when you're too close (like on stage), but diminshes as you back away. I'm going to have to re-consider the NOS/hyper hole-in-the-middle myth. Thoughts? -Charlies
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i run hypers really wide.....about 25-28cm (depending upon microphones) for a local venue here in st. louis that is a medium size theatre. sometimes i think i'm the only one that thinks this "hole in the middle" is a just taper scare tactic ;) i guess now i know i'm not alone 8)
i've ran cardioids split 8 feet with no hole in the middle.
i find myself running varied configs most of the time. i'll rarely ever bust out pure ortf, din, dina, etc. It's probably why i'll never get actives and kwon bars for my schoeps.
you did what all recordists should. judge the sound and adjust from there. rock on!
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actives and the bar are sooooo much easier though...
but in general yeah, the configs are just a nice starting point
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for that kind of money for new active cables.......it isn't that much easier ;)
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i dont even like sub cards NOS. that images like shit, imo
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i dont even like sub cards NOS. that images like shit, imo
Yeah Nick, I think it is blanket statements like this, with no context, that people latch onto and start to take as gospel...and I think that it creates misperceptions... like "FOB sounds better than anything else." Shouldn't it be "Sub cards NOS image like shit from the 20th row of boomy hockey arena built in the 70s"?
In fact, what are the "absolute" statements that apply across-the-board? For example, is the following statement gospel: "LDs don't perform as well as SDs from a distance"?
-Charlies
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yeah Charlies...
note the "imo" that should set aside blanket statements from personal opinions....
but thats the way I see it. I'm just not a fan of it myself. I've been right on top of bands and run NOS and still dont like it.
"absolute" blanket statements..
- SD mics are better for concert taping than LD. but YMMV
- LD mics sound better coincident than near coincident, but again..YMMV.
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I am not going to step into this one :yikes:
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yeah Charlies...
note the "imo" that should set aside blanket statements from personal opinions....
but thats the way I see it. I'm just not a fan of it myself. I've been right on top of bands and run NOS and still dont like it.
"absolute" blanket statements..
- SD mics are better for concert taping than LD. but YMMV
- LD mics sound better coincident than near coincident, but again..YMMV.
Cool...
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i dont even like sub cards NOS. that images like shit, imo
Yeah Nick, I think it is blanket statements like this, with no context, that people latch onto and start to take as gospel...and I think that it creates misperceptions... like "FOB sounds better than anything else." Shouldn't it be "Sub cards NOS image like shit from the 20th row of boomy hockey arena built in the 70s"?
In fact, what are the "absolute" statements that apply across-the-board? For example, is the following statement gospel: "LDs don't perform as well as SDs from a distance"?
-Charlies
I have found that LD's sound better in better sounding venues.. like a proportional curve imo.. the better the venue sounds the better a LD will sound compared to a SD.. I think this is mostly due to the off axis coloration of LD's, whereas the acoustics of the venue, if wretched, will be exagerated in a LD recording(even hypers).. ex. boomy + LD's(without rolloff) = extra boomy edit: Dont get me wrong, I do like the sound of lots of SD mics.. schoeps, neumann, josephson, earthworks MG et al. It's just that, in comparison to an LD, all SD's have what I think is a tiny tiny tinny sound to them.. Like a less "open" sound.. constrained.. hmm thats the best description I can muster
I also tend to think LD's sound great onstage and close, especially when running larger patterns, in any configuation. I am partial to the soundstaging and separation that M/S creates, however all of the NOS or spread omni tapes I have made with LD's sound great.
of course and as allways.. ymmv
Happy Taping!
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looking forward to getting back into the ld game myself...
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In fact, what are the "absolute" statements that apply across-the-board?
-Charlies
B&K's rock the house.
Schoeps are muddy sounding.
;) ;D ;) :-*
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I disagree, the DPA402X need to be in the sweet spot or they sound like mud. I think the Schoeps are more forgiving, AKGs even more forgiving.
FWIW, I ran the Nak CM300 in NOS for a long time....till I discovered ORTF and DIN, thos e configs imaged much better and took the most of the mud out of the sound.
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i've run LD mics a lot in my short taping carreer. Love them...when things are right. the SD mics just work better for my ears though. they sound good up front, far away and everywhere in between.
LD mics have that fat soundstage ...and typicaly come w/the options of multiple patterns...which is nice.
you just cant beat the 414 for a LD concert taping mic. They have all the good things you want in a pair of guns..including price.
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i've run LD mics a lot in my short taping carreer. Love them...when things are right. the SD mics just work better for my ears though. they sound good up front, far away and everywhere in between.
LD mics have that fat soundstage ...and typicaly come w/the options of multiple patterns...which is nice.
you just cant beat the 414 for a LD concert taping mic. They have all the good things you want in a pair of guns..including price.
AT4050s sound great too, and are cheaper. card, omni, fig 8.
i use them a lot. I havent heard of many folks using them to tape with, i guess cuz noone ever thought to use them with all the other LDs around. i have some shows if someone wants.
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i've always been curious about those...I like the AT sound. flat, but not dry
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i've always been curious about those...I like the AT sound. flat, but not dry
nick i can shoot you a sample, just give me an email.
teddy
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i think the "hole in the middle" thing is more likely to happen with a larger included angle with hypers, rather than the distance between the caps. I don't know that i've actually ever heard a tape with a hole in the middle, but in just thinking about it, i think the hole theory is sort of based on a misperception that the lobes of a microphone are in a sense "physical" with actual boundaries to them. in reality, the lobes are differing levels of attenuation of frequencies as you vary further and further off axis. for example a first-order cardioid (don't know exactly what first order means) is 3db down at 55 degrees off-axis (according to dpa microphone university) - which is probably where the french came up with ortf which is just 2 first order cards each 55 degrees off-axis. a hyper cardiod has a steeper attenuation curve than this, so if they were spaced at 110 degrees, the more severe attenuation of the hypers coiuld result in a perception that there is a hole in the middle. but at 90 degrees, whether they are spaced at 17cm or 30 cm, i wouldn't imagine that the perceived hole in the middle would be there.
charlies-i actually have found the reverse at the 930 club, i like running less than 90 degrees there. the best tapes i've pulled from the section have been cards at about 70 degrees or so, with the "center line" of the mics pointed right in between the stacks (if that makes sense).
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Damon,
Good point agreed that the angle is the biggest factor, although at some point distance has to become a factor.
On the 930 Club, maybe you using cards and me using hypers is the difference between our results? Hypers and it seems to be even moreso cards from the corner will result essentially in a left-stack-only tape. If seems to me that the more cap separation you get, the more likely you will be able to pick up at least a bit of the right stack.
-Charlies
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imo, when you are off to one side and recording a single stack of a stereo mix, a simple DIN or ORTF setup will only be getting that stack...mostly, but the seperation (and angle) will result in phase issues that will sort of simulate stereo.
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that's what doug claims too...
the phase/timing issues combined with the crowd create a psuedo stereo effect...
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well, i don't agree. i've walked across the room at the 930 club to check just how "stereo" the image is that is being created by the stacks. alot of the information that is coming from the right stack is present on the tape. there is no doubt that there is more of a presence of the left stack, but the right stack information is there for sure. these are not simply tricked out stack tapes. and actually, the 4022's performed best, imo, ortf, while the 140's and u89's (obviously more colored microphones) performed best at about 70 degrees included angle, 20cm. as usual, take it fwiw, ymmv, yada, yada.
edit to add: for sure, the few tapes i've made from the balcony there are better, there's no doubt about it.
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never been to the 9:30 so I'll take your word for it on how that PA sounds :)
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isn't the feed at the 9:30 mono?
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no, it's stereo. at least for most bands.