Topic: Schoeps Double MS plug-in discussion...(cool again..even for boomy clubs)

[KLowe]

Hello team,
I'm really struggling with setting this plug-in up in wavelab.  I load up the montage...load up the plug-in...assign the channels... and then what?

I've googled for tutorials and can only find one for Tracktion.

Any of you guys used this plug-in for Wavelab?  Anyone know where to find an online step-by-step?

anyone have time to explain it to me.


(I assume your soundcard MUST have the cabability to do 5.1 channel out?)

THanks in advance.

Kevin

[baustin]

*I have not used this plugin, so this is all speculative*

What does Wavelab do when you hit render? Does it output individual files (ie - Left Front, Right Front, Center, Left Rear, Right Rear)?

Have you switched to DVD-Audio Mode?


Switching to DVD-Audio mode gives me this warning message:


But also gives me these options:

[boojum]

Have you tried the Schoeps plugin for this purpose?  It is free and requires only that you register on their website.,  The will notify you by e-mail when you have been allowed to D/L the plugin.  I got mine and it looks like it works fine in SAM8.

[RebelRebel]

Have you tried the Schoeps plugin for this purpose?  It is free and requires only that you register on their website.,  The will notify you by e-mail when you have been allowed to D/L the plugin.  I got mine and it looks like it works fine in SAM8.

are you aware of the title of this thread...

[KLowe]

ALright.  I figured it out.  It is actually pretty easy to use. 

The only thing left is how to figure out how to set the outs to
2 channel and 5 channel.

I'll get it figured out tonight when I get home.........(hopefully).

-word.

[boojum]

Have you tried the Schoeps plugin for this purpose?  It is free and requires only that you register on their website.,  The will notify you by e-mail when you have been allowed to D/L the plugin.  I got mine and it looks like it works fine in SAM8.

are you aware of the title of this thread...

Just to jog your memory, the title of this thread is: Re: Schoeps Double MS plug-in discussion...... (need help)

I suggested the easy plug-in was from the manufacturer, Schoeps, rather than some weird gyrations required in Wavelab.  I was pursuing the train of thought that the manufacturer of the setup might have a better plugin than other folks.  Not having tried Wavelab I cannot be sure.  But I can tell you I have not had a problem with the Schoeps plugin.  As usual,  YMMV.     

[RebelRebel]

Have you tried the Schoeps plugin for this purpose?  It is free and requires only that you register on their website.,  The will notify you by e-mail when you have been allowed to D/L the plugin.  I got mine and it looks like it works fine in SAM8.

are you aware of the title of this thread...

Just to jog your memory, the title of this thread is: Re: Schoeps Double MS plug-in discussion...... (need help)

I suggested the easy plug-in was from the manufacturer, Schoeps, rather than some weird gyrations required in Wavelab.  I was pursuing the train of thought that the manufacturer of the setup might have a better plugin than other folks.  Not having tried Wavelab I cannot be sure.  But I can tell you I have not had a problem with the Schoeps plugin.  As usual,  YMMV.     

he was asking how to use the Schoeps plugin in wavelab....so your suggesting the schoeps plugin to him was a bit redundant.

[boojum]

My mistake.  The error was that I saw nowhere the setup that I get from the Schoeps MS plugin in SAM8.  Pretty straightforward there.

Cheers   

[DSatz]

Have you tried the Schoeps plug-in for double M/S?

(grinning, ducking and running ...)

[DSatz]

Moke, yes. It's a three-microphone recording technique which can be used either for surround recording or for two-channel stereo. When used for two-channel stereo it resembles M/S in the usual sense, except that it takes away one of the big limitations of two-microphone M/S recording.

With two-microphone M/S, you can make one main adjustment in playback: You can vary the proportion of the S signal relative to the M signal going into the matrix. Increasing S gives you more stereo separation and at the same time, increases the proportion of reverberant sound in the result. Decreasing S gives you more and more of a mono signal until finally there is no more S, and the result really is mono. At that point you also have a maximum of direct sound pickup as compared to reverberant sound.

That's very good--generally speaking, a clearer, "drier" sound is preferable for mono--but sometimes you might like to adjust the stereo image width and also the amount of direct vs. reverberant sound energy with separate, independent control over both aspects of the recording. That's what the third microphone and the additional matrixing give you. It's like being able to adjust both the angle between a coincident pair of microphones and their polar pattern--both "after the fact," with the raw recording already stored safely on your hard drive.

--best regards

[KLowe]

Moke, yes. It's a three-microphone recording technique which can be used either for surround recording or for two-channel stereo. When used for two-channel stereo it resembles M/S in the usual sense, except that it takes away one of the big limitations of two-microphone M/S recording.

With two-microphone M/S, you can make one main adjustment in playback: You can vary the proportion of the S signal relative to the M signal going into the matrix. Increasing S gives you more stereo separation and at the same time, increases the proportion of reverberant sound in the result. Decreasing S gives you more and more of a mono signal until finally there is no more S, and the result really is mono. At that point you also have a maximum of direct sound pickup as compared to reverberant sound.

That's very good--generally speaking, a clearer, "drier" sound is preferable for mono--but sometimes you might like to adjust the stereo image width and also the amount of direct vs. reverberant sound energy with separate, independent control over both aspects of the recording. That's what the third microphone and the additional matrixing give you. It's like being able to adjust both the angle between a coincident pair of microphones and their polar pattern--both "after the fact," with the raw recording already stored safely on your hard drive.

--best regards

^^^what he said is why I am so interested in this plug-in^^^

now.  one question. 
My sound card only has 2 channel outs.  Do I HAVE to have a 5.1 soundcard to be able to save and burn the files into a DVD-a so I can play this back on my 5.1 system?  (ie. DVD player).

thanks

[baustin]

This two channel guy is having a tough time wrapping his brain around this.
This is a surround technique? that can be mixed down to two channel??

and to further elaborate...

there is one forward facing M microphone (lets call this Mf for forward) and one rear facing M microphone (lets call this Mr for rear).

you can use Mf/S for a standard, 2 channel Mid-Side recording.

or...

you can make a 5.1 surround recording. this would be accomplished by using Mf for the center channel, Mf/S for the front left and right channels, and Ms/S for the rear left and right channels. i don't know where the .1 channel comes into play. i guess if you were crazy enough, you could just throw an omni mic into the mix and use it for your sub.



so what, klowe was trying to figure out how to decode this mess using wavelab and the free plugin that schoeps provides. don't worry moke, klowe is gonna explain in detail, exactly how the whole process is done, isn't that right kevin? 

[baustin]

now.  one question. 
My sound card only has 2 channel outs.  Do I HAVE to have a 5.1 soundcard to be able to save and burn the files into a DVD-a so I can play this back on my 5.1 system?  (ie. DVD player).

thanks

my guess is probably not if you're just trying to save files. but to monitor while you edit... probably.

[KLowe]

don't worry moke, klowe is gonna explain in detail, exactly how the whole process is done, isn't that right kevin? 

Yeup.  I'm gonna try to make a "how to in wavelab" with screenshots for the rest of the kidz.  (how does one take screen shots?)

being able to HEAR and SEE the differences in polar patters is REALLY freaking cool.  Also the ability to CHANGE the polar patters of the mics in post is just freakin nutty!

[baustin]

(how does one take screen shots?)

i'm running windows, so i can only speak for windows...

look on your keyboard, there should be a button that says "Print Screen". on my computer i have to hit Fn + F11. i go into photoshop, just select "new" and hit paste. resize the  image or select the portion you want to show.

[KLowe]

(how does one take screen shots?)

i'm running windows, so i can only speak for windows...

look on your keyboard, there should be a button that says "Print Screen". on my computer i have to hit Fn + F11. i go into photoshop, just select "new" and hit paste. resize the  image or select the portion you want to show.

Thanks.  I'll try to throw something together tonight when the little one goes to sleep.

K

[beanstalk]

(how does one take screen shots?)

i'm running windows, so i can only speak for windows...

look on your keyboard, there should be a button that says "Print Screen". on my computer i have to hit Fn + F11. i go into photoshop, just select "new" and hit paste. resize the  image or select the portion you want to show.

Thanks.  I'll try to throw something together tonight when the little one goes to sleep.

K

shift+ctrl+alt+print screen will also do the trick.

[KLowe]

OK.  I've come to the conclusion that double M/S has no real life application in boomy club shows....unless they are running rears (but where does this happen?).  I could definately see this application being useful for onstage pulls (esp set up in the center of the stage).

i/It has been very fun to play with the Bisco Show and altering the polar patterns, angles, etc, etc...but all the mixes I made were lacking and sound "dull".  I broke it down and listened to all the individual tracks and discovered that the rear facing card is all dull bass and crowd noise (no useful information).  Since the plug-in requires this channel to work...all it is really doing is adding dull mud to every conceivable mix for two channel M/S.....so the operation Double MS bisco has been  scratched.....esp since I found that runnin' plain ol M/S sounds a whole hellova lot better. 

I'd LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to run double M/S in the center of an orchestral arrangement, for nature sounds, or location sound.  I'd be the results would be phenominal.  But for boomy clubs set up in the back facing the stage.....the rear facing card just kills any good info from the forward facing and side mics.

I'm sure to the audiophiles this comes as no surprise....but I have always been a learn by doing kindof guy.

I've learned a TON from this little experiement and can't wait to run it in optimal settings.

just thought yall like to know.

Later,
K

[Jammin72]

Don't count it out for Outdoor shows.  While the rear channel information is certainly not critical it can get you a holographic type of soundstage.... [see blumlien]

Enjoy the toys, sounds like a great way to spend some time.

[DSatz]

KLowe, I'm not sure how bright-sounding something has to be before you wouldn't call it dull, but keep in mind that many settings of the double M/S matrix software cause the rear-facing cardioid's signal to be subtracted from the front-facing one's signal to some degree--thus (for coherent sound) shifting the overall balance away from what you might call "dullness."

Diffuse sound energy does tend to have decreasing energy as you get toward higher frequencies, because the high frequencies are absorbed much more by room furnishings and live human bodies than lower frequencies are. But that's good, since you want the stereo image to be determined mainly by the first arriving sound, not by reflections (especially early ones)--you don't want those to be localizable.

--best regards

[KLowe]

KLowe, I'm not sure how bright-sounding something has to be before you wouldn't call it dull, but keep in mind that many settings of the double M/S matrix software cause the rear-facing cardioid's signal to be subtracted from the front-facing one's signal to some degree--thus (for coherent sound) shifting the overall balance away from what you might call "dullness."

Diffuse sound energy does tend to have decreasing energy as you get toward higher frequencies, because the high frequencies are absorbed much more by room furnishings and live human bodies than lower frequencies are. But that's good, since you want the stereo image to be determined mainly by the first arriving sound, not by reflections (especially early ones)--you don't want those to be localizable.

--best regards

DSatz,
What settings would be used in double m/s to make the rear card subtracted from the mix?  When in the plugin does the rear card pattern become added to the mix?  Is there a specific polar pattern or mic angle.  I guess my problem with the M/S matrix is....I could create some very fine sounding 2 channel mixes but they tended to be very mono (ie. subcard pattern mics at 29degree angle in the MS plugin).  I KNOW that I'm not using this plugin to it's full potential and from your comments above it seems that I still don't fully understand what I'm doing (surprise!).

I'm still going to mess around with it to see what I can create.  I'll still upload some raw files for others to mess around with.

[DSatz]

KLowe, you can think of the front-facing and backward-facing cardioids as resembling twin diaphragms in a single variable-pattern M microphone if you like. From that viewpoint, the backward-facing cardioid is being added to the M channel signal whenever the pattern of the virtual M microphone is anything between omni and cardioid (though not cardioid itself--in that one pattern, the signal from the rear-facing microphone plays no part, since the front-facing microphone already is a cardioid). It's being subtracted from the front-facing cardioid whenever the pattern is between cardioid and figure-8, e.g. anything supercardioidish or hypercardioidish, or figure-8 itself. That corresponds to the rear "out of phase" lobe of the pattern.

Does that make sense to you?

[KLowe]

It does make sense and beautifully at that.  Thank you.  I guess that is where I trusted my eyes more than my ears  .  I have a tendancy to run subcards...so naturally I picked a polar pattern that resembled subs which explains the "dull" sound. 

I really need to put the mouse on the slider and Listen to what MY EARS tell me and not my eyes.

As always....+T and Thank you do DSatz.

.......I'm headin back in....


KLowe

[rowjimmy]

I'm getting curious enough that I'm going to have to try this at home with my guitar and living room.

[KLowe]

Edit....it still rules and is good for boomy clubs.

I figured out how to adjust the input of the three channels going into the plug-in.

at first I normalized all tracks and ran them through the plug in....results were either mono or boomy.

Then I finally figured out that I could adjust the amount of side and rear going into the plug-in.  Made all the difference in the world.

sure...there are a shitload of variables with this plug'in but once it gets figured out...the ability to dial in the sound makes for a very nice and clean tape.

Learning curve is definitely steep...but I'm getting it figured out (I think)