Topic: Schoeps Double MS plug-in discussion...(cool again..even for boomy clubs)

[KLowe]

(how does one take screen shots?)

i'm running windows, so i can only speak for windows...

look on your keyboard, there should be a button that says "Print Screen". on my computer i have to hit Fn + F11. i go into photoshop, just select "new" and hit paste. resize the  image or select the portion you want to show.

Thanks.  I'll try to throw something together tonight when the little one goes to sleep.

K

[beanstalk]

(how does one take screen shots?)

i'm running windows, so i can only speak for windows...

look on your keyboard, there should be a button that says "Print Screen". on my computer i have to hit Fn + F11. i go into photoshop, just select "new" and hit paste. resize the  image or select the portion you want to show.

Thanks.  I'll try to throw something together tonight when the little one goes to sleep.

K

shift+ctrl+alt+print screen will also do the trick.

[KLowe]

OK.  I've come to the conclusion that double M/S has no real life application in boomy club shows....unless they are running rears (but where does this happen?).  I could definately see this application being useful for onstage pulls (esp set up in the center of the stage).

i/It has been very fun to play with the Bisco Show and altering the polar patterns, angles, etc, etc...but all the mixes I made were lacking and sound "dull".  I broke it down and listened to all the individual tracks and discovered that the rear facing card is all dull bass and crowd noise (no useful information).  Since the plug-in requires this channel to work...all it is really doing is adding dull mud to every conceivable mix for two channel M/S.....so the operation Double MS bisco has been  scratched.....esp since I found that runnin' plain ol M/S sounds a whole hellova lot better. 

I'd LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to run double M/S in the center of an orchestral arrangement, for nature sounds, or location sound.  I'd be the results would be phenominal.  But for boomy clubs set up in the back facing the stage.....the rear facing card just kills any good info from the forward facing and side mics.

I'm sure to the audiophiles this comes as no surprise....but I have always been a learn by doing kindof guy.

I've learned a TON from this little experiement and can't wait to run it in optimal settings.

just thought yall like to know.

Later,
K

[Jammin72]

Don't count it out for Outdoor shows.  While the rear channel information is certainly not critical it can get you a holographic type of soundstage.... [see blumlien]

Enjoy the toys, sounds like a great way to spend some time.

[DSatz]

KLowe, I'm not sure how bright-sounding something has to be before you wouldn't call it dull, but keep in mind that many settings of the double M/S matrix software cause the rear-facing cardioid's signal to be subtracted from the front-facing one's signal to some degree--thus (for coherent sound) shifting the overall balance away from what you might call "dullness."

Diffuse sound energy does tend to have decreasing energy as you get toward higher frequencies, because the high frequencies are absorbed much more by room furnishings and live human bodies than lower frequencies are. But that's good, since you want the stereo image to be determined mainly by the first arriving sound, not by reflections (especially early ones)--you don't want those to be localizable.

--best regards

[KLowe]

KLowe, I'm not sure how bright-sounding something has to be before you wouldn't call it dull, but keep in mind that many settings of the double M/S matrix software cause the rear-facing cardioid's signal to be subtracted from the front-facing one's signal to some degree--thus (for coherent sound) shifting the overall balance away from what you might call "dullness."

Diffuse sound energy does tend to have decreasing energy as you get toward higher frequencies, because the high frequencies are absorbed much more by room furnishings and live human bodies than lower frequencies are. But that's good, since you want the stereo image to be determined mainly by the first arriving sound, not by reflections (especially early ones)--you don't want those to be localizable.

--best regards

DSatz,
What settings would be used in double m/s to make the rear card subtracted from the mix?  When in the plugin does the rear card pattern become added to the mix?  Is there a specific polar pattern or mic angle.  I guess my problem with the M/S matrix is....I could create some very fine sounding 2 channel mixes but they tended to be very mono (ie. subcard pattern mics at 29degree angle in the MS plugin).  I KNOW that I'm not using this plugin to it's full potential and from your comments above it seems that I still don't fully understand what I'm doing (surprise!).

I'm still going to mess around with it to see what I can create.  I'll still upload some raw files for others to mess around with.

[DSatz]

KLowe, you can think of the front-facing and backward-facing cardioids as resembling twin diaphragms in a single variable-pattern M microphone if you like. From that viewpoint, the backward-facing cardioid is being added to the M channel signal whenever the pattern of the virtual M microphone is anything between omni and cardioid (though not cardioid itself--in that one pattern, the signal from the rear-facing microphone plays no part, since the front-facing microphone already is a cardioid). It's being subtracted from the front-facing cardioid whenever the pattern is between cardioid and figure-8, e.g. anything supercardioidish or hypercardioidish, or figure-8 itself. That corresponds to the rear "out of phase" lobe of the pattern.

Does that make sense to you?

[KLowe]

It does make sense and beautifully at that.  Thank you.  I guess that is where I trusted my eyes more than my ears  .  I have a tendancy to run subcards...so naturally I picked a polar pattern that resembled subs which explains the "dull" sound. 

I really need to put the mouse on the slider and Listen to what MY EARS tell me and not my eyes.

As always....+T and Thank you do DSatz.

.......I'm headin back in....


KLowe

[rowjimmy]

I'm getting curious enough that I'm going to have to try this at home with my guitar and living room.

[KLowe]

Edit....it still rules and is good for boomy clubs.

I figured out how to adjust the input of the three channels going into the plug-in.

at first I normalized all tracks and ran them through the plug in....results were either mono or boomy.

Then I finally figured out that I could adjust the amount of side and rear going into the plug-in.  Made all the difference in the world.

sure...there are a shitload of variables with this plug'in but once it gets figured out...the ability to dial in the sound makes for a very nice and clean tape.

Learning curve is definitely steep...but I'm getting it figured out (I think)