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Offline soundgeezer

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field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« on: September 27, 2010, 05:09:54 AM »
Hi everyone!

Disclaimer: I'm a complete newbie when it comes to sound recording, so please be gentle if I happen to ask a somewhat ignorant question here. :)

In January, I'll be heading on an 11-day trip to India with Chris Watson to capture wildlife sounds. Ideally, I'd like to grab a good mix of both individual animals and overall environmental stuff. (I'm posting some recorder/mixer questions elsewhere on this board.)

At the moment, I only own a cheap dynamic mic and am obviously wanting to invest in something more substantial. Currently thinking of several things:

SHOTGUN option: Sennheiser K6/ME66
PARABOLIC option: Telinga 7W with Dual Science (would this be good for a mix of the two things I want?)
ALSO: 2x DPA 4060 on a coat hanger.

Any thoughts on this? I'm on a budget and will invest more later on, but need enough to get me started out. Shotgun or dish? Or chuck those and go with the DPA?

Thanks for any help!

Offline John Willett

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2010, 07:02:19 AM »
If you get the K6 + ME66, get the ME 62 omni as well and use it in a parabolic reflector as supplied via the Wildlife Sound Recording Society.

Gives a lot of flexibility.

Offline rastasean

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2010, 03:50:14 PM »
That's a fine shotgun mic! The power supply will help you out since you won't require phantom power.

A couple things to consider are wind protection and some means to hold the microphone.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/579335-REG/Rode_BLIMP_Blimp_Complete_Windshield.html

For $300, that gets you a lot and can hold other microphones of different diameters when you upgrade.

You will then need to consider a boom pole if you don't want to always hold that by its handle. I don't have any experience with boom poles but I personally would be fine with aluminum as opposed to a carbon pole.
this looks pretty promising because it gets very small and can extend almost 7 feet.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/387889-REG/K_Tek_KE_79_KE_79_Traveler_Avalon.html

If all this too expensive...another option is binaural microphones.
check out this post in regards to nature recordings: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139513.0

with the latter, you will not be able to monitor what you're recording but with the senn and a recorder, you will be able to.

John and I would recommend a pair of Sennheiser hd-25ii headphones for absolute sound isolation.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139513.0

they may look cheap and ugly but they are in a class of their own for sound isolation.

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Offline soundgeezer

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2010, 03:45:48 AM »
Thanks guys... Another thing I'm looking at (which is used by, among others, Chris Watson) are two DPA 4060s on a wire coathanger, which supposedly creates a nice spatial sound (and is really light to carry around).

Offline John Willett

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2010, 10:20:12 AM »
Thanks guys... Another thing I'm looking at (which is used by, among others, Chris Watson) are two DPA 4060s on a wire coathanger, which supposedly creates a nice spatial sound (and is really light to carry around).

Good ideas, nice mics.  The new Sennheiser MKE 1 are also worth considering and are similar quality (the MKE 1 has moisture protection).

For a basket windshield; personally I would go for the Rycote S-series if you can't afford a full Rycote kit.

The S-series is cheaper than the Rode blimp (in the UK at least) and has much better suspension and is still a basket windshield.

Offline oleg

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2010, 10:45:51 AM »
k-6 -66 is the one of the worst shotguns i ever worked with
if you're  looking something on the cheap side , the audiotechnica 835 or rode ntg-3 are much better products .
 for long shotgun with narrow pickup the neuman 82 or even old 816/815 you can find for chep .
 for atmosphere  its better go with cardioid pic up or add fig of 8 to your existing mic , the dpas are waste of money  as for less you can get much better setup with octavas with different patterns , wind baskets and fur are must to get good recordings .
 no easy way around
oleg kaizerman(gebe)hollyland
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schoepses, gefells, sankens, sennheisers....all kind of shit ....ends with deva 16  fusion ,zfr,788, 744, hhb
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Offline rastasean

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2010, 03:46:40 PM »
k-6 -66 is the one of the worst shotguns i ever worked with
if you're  looking something on the cheap side , the audiotechnica 835 or rode ntg-3 are much better products .
 for long shotgun with narrow pickup the neuman 82 or even old 816/815 you can find for chep .
 for atmosphere  its better go with cardioid pic up or add fig of 8 to your existing mic , the dpas are waste of money  as for less you can get much better setup with octavas with different patterns , wind baskets and fur are must to get good recordings .
 no easy way around

it is surprising that the me66 is the worst you've used but you certainly have a wide range of microphones to choose from and that you've had experience with. LUCKY!!!


specifically, what octavas would you recommend?


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Offline rastasean

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2010, 03:55:13 PM »

Good ideas, nice mics.  The new Sennheiser MKE 1 are also worth considering and are similar quality (the MKE 1 has moisture protection).

For a basket windshield; personally I would go for the Rycote S-series if you can't afford a full Rycote kit.

The S-series is cheaper than the Rode blimp (in the UK at least) and has much better suspension and is still a basket windshield.

there's a $30 difference between the s-series and the rode blimp in america at b&h prices. What I like about the rode blimp is that almost one size fits all. the s-series come in various lengths which may require you to buy more than one depending on the size microphones you use.   

another plus on the rode side is that it has a ten year warranty and the rycote has a 1 year warranty. I haven't studied either warranty to find out what is included and whats not, but it is very nice that the company offers that long of a warranty.
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline oleg

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2010, 04:34:42 PM »
k-it is surprising that the me66 is the worst you've used but you certainly have a wide range of microphones to choose from and that you've had experience with. LUCKY!!!
specifically, what octavas would you recommend?

its not luck , itsproffession :-)

oktavas -
for the price they cost i like them all :-)
use widely their cardioid 012 and mk 102 on almost  anything , and the ribbons for micking sax or bass
the hypers are ok as well  for voice
quit depends what are you recording  and where

oleg kaizerman(gebe)hollyland
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schoepses, gefells, sankens, sennheisers....all kind of shit ....ends with deva 16  fusion ,zfr,788, 744, hhb
http://groups.google.com/group/sellbuyexchange-film-videoaudiogear

Offline oleg

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 04:43:09 PM »
by the way , if you go with short mics for atmosphere  for xy or even ms   you can use windtech  special foam ( double foam ) and mic muff( fur) over it for windy situations , much cheaper then been robed by rycote , work well  i use tehse for documentary
they have small fur as well over regular size small foam . (windtech - olson group on web )
rode is good for shotguns  or you can buy PSC suspension and use aditional mic muff for your shotgun ( short shotgun only) foam ,
check also ktek products , cheaper then rycote as well working grate .
oleg kaizerman(gebe)hollyland
kaizeroaudio-rentals -sound for film/tv sales

schoepses, gefells, sankens, sennheisers....all kind of shit ....ends with deva 16  fusion ,zfr,788, 744, hhb
http://groups.google.com/group/sellbuyexchange-film-videoaudiogear

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2010, 05:43:54 PM »
As always the answer is, 'it depends'..

I have no idea what your target use is, how professional you want to go, or how deep 'into the bush' you plan on getting.  I am certainly no expert on wildlife recording.  But I have traveled extensively throughout India and Asia and I have made many enjoyable amateur recordings of trains, birds, frogs and other non-human things here in the States.

Some important things to consider:
What is the primary goal of the trip? Sound recording above all else, part vacation, or mostly vacation with some sound recording as well? How much gear can you / do you want to haul? What will be the primary use of the audio? There seems to be two different approaches to wildlife recording, with different aims even if they are not necessarily exclusive of the other.  Although it sounds like you are looking for some of both, it's easier if you primarily target one or the other of these, since getting both at the same time is more difficult and generally takes more gear.  At the risk of insulting your expertise with my limited understanding, this is how I differentiate the two: 1) capturing the overall sonic feel and atmosphere of a particular environment.  This is often used for 'traveling audio journal' type material, think "your are there in the bazaar or out on the Serengeti" NPR audio documentary type material.  It's an approach that stresses naturalness of the overall sound and is generally used more for artistic or story telling purposes, things like radio or film ambiances, etc.  Although recordings of this persuasion might end up layered or used as a background track, they can usually stand on their own, sonically speaking.  2) Isolating a particular sound of interest, such as a specific animal's call.  This is often a more analytical goal, focusing on capturing the sound of one particular element or critter in the overall sonic environment 'scene'.  This approach often sacrifices naturalness of the overall ambience as less important than maximizing the clarity and presence or signal to noise ratio of the sound of interest.  As an example- bird researchers are far more concerned with properly identifying the species and numbers of birds present and place much less value on all other sonic qualities of the recording.  This approach is what you will encounter on many, but not all wildlife recording forums.  That isn't always the case, as the goal may be high quality samples of animal calls for TV or film work where the naturalness of the specific sound is primarily important, but those sounds are not designed to stand on their own terms and are nearly always layered on top of other environment ambiences.

So consideration of those things will obviously influence your choices.

Next time I travel to India and Bhutan I’m bringing my four 4060s as part of a 4-channel surround recording rig that I can literally fit entirely in a small shaving kit bag (including mics, small telescopic TV antenna as A-B bar, recorder(s), batteries, chargers, media, preamps, etc).  I’ll probably not even pack a small stand and simply use the ‘rabbit ear’ telescopic TV antenna like the coat hanger wire you mention- works great, adjusts easily and packs small.  My goal is high-quality overall ambient capture and small, easy to carry, but environment-hardy gear.  I also want to be able to record with a minimum of fuss. Small electret omnis fit those requirements nicely and I know I can get the quality I want, powered by a few AA’s and rechargeable 9V batteries.

The DPA 4060s (or other high-quality and probably less expensive, small PIP powered omnis such as the Sennheisers John mentioned, possibly the Countryman B-3, etc.) are excellent for making realistic, enveloping 'you are in the enviromnent' type recordings. They are incredibly small and very hardy in difficult environments.  I've drenched them in pouring rain, rinsed them in distilled water and they were fine.  They usually only need foam windscreen protection for any weather you’d be recording in. Self noise of super small omnis will be higher than ‘big mics’, and that topic always comes up on nature recording forums, but I haven’t found it to be a problem using the 4060s for the quiet ambient material I’ve recorded (it could be a factor with other mics).  As omnis, they generally fit approach #1 above, unless you can plant the rig quite close to the critter you are targeting, or perhaps use them with a parabolic reflector, which of course adds considerable bulk to your rig.  I’ve never used a parabolic reflector, but that can be a way of getting some approach #2 with the same rig when you need to focus in from more of a distance.  If interested in that, check the nature DIY forums for parabolic techniques using baffled stereo omnis in the reflector, or you might try using one mic of the pair in the reflector like a typical  mono parabolic mic, and the other attached to the back side of it, capturing the general ambience.. some of both worlds.

If the focus is the #2 approach, shotguns do a superior job of isolating specific sounds at a distance, but the naturalness of all off-axis sound suffers.  Quality shotguns (and figure-8s if combined for MidSide stereo) are much more costly than quality small omnis, and generally require phantom powering.. meaning bigger, bulkier, more expensive and much more power hungry equipment.  True condenser mics are also less hardy in difficult environments, phantom powered Sennheiser RF mics excepted.  The gear is generally much bigger, including all the support stuff, like the cables, shock mounts, effective windscreens, etc.  But if the #2 approach is your goal, then these may be reasonable concessions.

Hope that helps, apologies for being so wordy.. analyze your goals are and figure out the best trade-offs.


[Below are a couple photos of my 'shaving kit' packable 4 channel surround rig, using telescopic TV antennas and small stand.  Without the stand it all fits in the smaller rectangular kit bag, including chargers.  Flikr slideshow of setting it up is here]-





« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 06:37:08 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rastasean

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2010, 05:54:52 PM »
I've been very interested in your setup, Gutbucket, for awhile and I like the fact of how small it is.
Have you got any recordings of nature made with it online for us to take a listen to?

another nice thing about your setup is that the recorders are also small ones so they can easily be used on their own, if desired.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2010, 06:34:33 PM »
To eliminate one recorder and the necessary post syncing, I've recently replaced the two R-09s in that little black bag with one Tascam DR2d which can record 4 channels in it's dual mode.  However, it is nice to have the ability to split this into two entirely seperate, identical stereo rigs instead of one 4-channel rig.  When I next travel overseas I'll probably bring one of the old R-09's along for that and as a backup.

I don't have any nature recordings posted, but I might be able dig a few stereo versions up if interested.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rastasean

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2010, 01:25:21 AM »
When learning about the Oktava mics, I came across this guys blog: http://soundgeekproductions.com/blog/

I would like to point out that his extensive gear list is not composed of schopes/dpa equipment and he even has a couple of the oktava mics.
http://soundgeekproductions.com/gear.html

too bad his blog isn't any longer.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: field recording newbie: shotgun or parabolic dish?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2010, 04:39:29 PM »
I've been very interested in your setup, Gutbucket, for awhile and I like the fact of how small it is.
Have you got any recordings of nature made with it online for us to take a listen to?

Here's a 2 channel stereo recording of a late night freight train approaching from a distance and passing close by, with sounds of several distant & close crossing gates signaling warnings in turn, and a mean sounding Corvette pulling across the tracks after the train and roaring off down the road.  I especially like the singing break-hose air-line on the rear of the train.  It is a somewhat urban environment, but late at night so the ambient noise floor is pretty low, with bugs frogs and night-bird song before and after the train.

DPA 4060 (baffled A-B config ~20" spacing) > DPA MMA6000 > Edirol R-09 (24/48) > FLAC

http://www.sendspace.com/file/3dtila

Warning! this is a highly dynamic recording.  I've frightened people by playing this one at realistic levels on good stereo systems.  You may want to first adjust playback volume to accommodate the loudest section, then go back and play from the beginning to get the full dynamic effect and to avoid having to keep reaching for the volume knob.  You can then go back and crank it up to explore the noise floor at the begining or end of the file the second time through.  The train horn peaks somewhere around -4dBfs as I recall, the bug/bird/frogs are down around -60dB or less.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 05:37:22 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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