Topic: mk41 vs mk4 ( ccm41 or ccm4) pickup

[bluntforcetrauma]

hello hope all is well.  I have looked at the polar patterns of each.  I am wondering from those with real world experience since they are expensive, does the ccm41 pick up rear noise, i see a 10db pick up from the back,  has anyone experienced noise pickup from the back, and along with that the Mk4 dont seem to pickup noise from behind. They may pick up more of an angle from the sides but with so much coin at stake i dont want to worry about people behind me yelling, if the cardoid mk4 does not pick it up wouldnt that be worth it or does the mk41 pick up so slight.

help

please

[Brian Skalinder]

FWIW, I always found the better off-axis rejection of the MK41 more beneficial than any negatives due to additional pickup from the small rear lobe (which I only ever noticed on rare occasions).

Another way to think about it:  if the tighter off-axis pattern will benefit the recording, it will benefit the whole recording, start to finish.  Even if the rear lobe picks up someone yelling behind you, they  probably won't be yelling through the entire recording...typically just a point in time (or perhaps several points in time, in a really unpleasant environment).  I'd rather have an overall better recording with a couple minor irritants than an irritant-free recording that doesn't sound as good.  (Of course, this all assumes the recording will sound better due to the use of the tighter pattern.)

[su6oxone]

Re: the pickup patterns and noise, I had that concern as well, and I've found that the 41s don't cut down crowd noise as much as I'd hoped compared to the 4s (and it does not pick up more crowd noise IME), but the sonic quality of the tape is definitely 'tighter' like Brian mentions, and this does make it sound different and/or better in certain recording conditions. 

Anyway, I am planning on doing some comparisons between the CCM4 and CCM41 next week with both in DINa, inches apart (vertically) on a stand, but going into different recorders (702 and 661) and post both sources on LMA, so stay tuned if interested...

[sparkey]

I love the tapes I make with my 41's....back of the room, front of the room, where ever.  The hypers, to my ear, reject lots of crowd noise and the rear lobe is negligible.

I spent years making great tapes down on the front drink rail with cards...now I make great tapes from the rear of the room with hypers, which involves a lot less work.

[bluntforcetrauma]

all great comments this really is helping. I really appreciate it

[Scooter123]

I borrowed some 41's and found the sound was not as rich (warm) as the mk4's, and due to the types of venues I go to (smallish) and the seats I try to get (DFC or FOB), the mk4's work better for me.  I wouldn't waste my money on them. 

[yug du nord]

The 41's can save a recording in some situations.  If you ever get caught in a crazy "chatty" room, or in an unlikely spot to record from....  the 41's can make a bad situation sound much better.
The 4's are great in proper situations.  And other caps are probably better than the 41's in certain situations......  but, 41's are great for spot miking, up close situations, or even from the back of the room too........  best all-around capsules IMO. 
If you're recording environment is "set", then the 4's might be best.
If you're recording environment is "improvised", then the 41's might be best.  IMO
Golden either way in my book.

And I agree with sparkey....  the rear lobe of the 41's isn't anything to worry about. 

[acidjack]

I do not consider myself to be a Schoeps junkie/fanboy like some people on this board have been rumored to be  , and I don't intend to swap my DPA 4021s for Mk4s anytime soon. 

That said, since I have owned my mk41s, I find myself using them more and more.  I record in small-to-medium (200-800) clubs mostly, and I find the hypers really cut down on room reflections. Also, just in general, the mk41s sound great--excellent bass response, crisp highs, and none of that nasty tinny-ness that hypers can have.  In fact, I still find that even the mk41 can pick up a bit more bass than I like from time to time.  Mk4s are a tad too warm/bassy/muddy for my typical uses IMHO, not that I haven't heard many truly outstanding recordings with them.

As Scooter notes, it depends what your primary taping methods are.  If you like to be way up front, then cardiods are your better bet.  When I do onstage or very near-field recordings I go to my 4021s or even 4061s, and obviously the mk4 is an excellent cap under those conditions also. 

I generally try to not be in the way of the audience, which puts me at the back of the room or on a balcony.  From those positions, I find more often than not that the mk41 is the way to go.

[stevetoney]

The only thing I'd add is that overall soundwise I give the nod to the MK4's because I think they sound better than the 41's.  But if your recording scenario's aren't very controlled, then go with 41's because they retain the character of the Schoeps line while increasing off-axis rejection.  If you think you'll have control of where you can setup your mics most of the time, I'd go with mk4's on the basis of their better sound and the fact that the 41's cost $200 a capsule more.  I wouldn't factor the rear lobe of the 41 into my concerns for reasons others have mentioned.

EDIT:  I no longer own 41's because a) I've discovered that I can't eliminate all crowd noise no matter where I record in a room and b) and I find that raising my stand a little more is quite effective for decreasing crowd noise.  Bottom line is that I just prefer to retain the warmth where others prefer to maximize off axis rejection.

EDIT 2:  Actually I kinda like Sparkey's suggestion in the following thread.  I'm even more partial to the sound of the wider cards than the regular cards.

[sparkey]

I used cards for a long time, and if I were to invest in another set of capsules it would be subcards rather than cards.  Cardoid pickup pattern is a bit of a bad compromise for many field situations - if I'm so close I like the sound of the cards, there is a good chance subcards may make a better tape.

[bluntforcetrauma]

thanks i tend to record in spots that are close to the sound source, stacks in big venues, I try for DFC FOB for smaller venues like (ruth eckerd hall 9 seat 2,000)


I truly like my DPA 4022 and 4061.  I have heard the schoeps give a different sound, and i was willing to dive into the schoeps arena, and since i have cards ( DPA 4022) i thought that the Mk41 I or ccm41) would be a nice change, but i dont see myself changing my recording positions at venues, i was wanting another set of mics. And i do use jedi taping skills the most.  In fact Like my DPA 4022 I customized my mic cable to only 1 meter--less cable to deal with.
again my main concerns was the rear pick up from behind me with the ccm41, and go lemo or hardwire mic cable.  they are not cheap.

thanks for all the advice it has been so very helpful ( again as you can see my OCD comes into effect when i think of rear pickup from the ccm41 with that kind of price tag.

and i am thinking of ccm41 version instead of capsules due to the extra gear i would have to lug around " if you know what i mean" if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps.  Not yet sold on the nbox, sorry

[su6oxone]

In fact Like my DPA 4022 I customized my mic cable to only 1 meter--less cable to deal with.

You can order custom length Lg cables from Schoeps for a reasonable price, about $200 (before the price drop this or last year).  I had a 1.25 meter cable made and it works great for stealthing. 

I also use the CCM41s fairly close (20 ft or less) at some local venues and they are good in those circumstances as well versus the 4s, cutting down on the boominess and helping to 'clarify' the sound.  After a few shows now the 41s have become my go-to, all-purpose mic, so if I'm running only one set of mics, I'm running the 41s.  But if I'm feeling up to the hassle, then I'll run both the 4s and the 41s to see which one I like better.

[sparkey]

if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps. 

You could also consider Neumann caps with the Lemosax (I think).

[page]

if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps. 

You could also consider Neumann caps with the Lemosax (I think).

While true, dont you have to do something with the pin-out or polarity to switch mic cap makers?

[johnw]

not to add more confusion, but the ccm4v and ccm41v caps have a lot to offer for stealth. that said, the 4v/41v caps do sound different from the 4/41 caps and while some people prefer that sound, others do not. if i had the money, i'd get the ccm4v and ccm41v before i got the non-vertical ones - especially if i was thinking of getting the lemo connection.

[StuStu]

thanks i tend to record in spots that are close to the sound source, stacks in big venues, I try for DFC FOB for smaller venues like (ruth eckerd hall 9 seat 2,000)


I truly like my DPA 4022 and 4061.  I have heard the schoeps give a different sound, and i was willing to dive into the schoeps arena, and since i have cards ( DPA 4022) i thought that the Mk41 I or ccm41) would be a nice change, but i dont see myself changing my recording positions at venues, i was wanting another set of mics. And i do use jedi taping skills the most.  In fact Like my DPA 4022 I customized my mic cable to only 1 meter--less cable to deal with.
again my main concerns was the rear pick up from behind me with the ccm41, and go lemo or hardwire mic cable.  they are not cheap.

thanks for all the advice it has been so very helpful ( again as you can see my OCD comes into effect when i think of rear pickup from the ccm41 with that kind of price tag.

and i am thinking of ccm41 version instead of capsules due to the extra gear i would have to lug around " if you know what i mean" if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps.  Not yet sold on the nbox, sorry

Another low profile option is mkx>kcy>vms02ib>recorder. I find myself using the mkx>vms02ib>744t more than any other combo. As for the choosing between the Schoeps 4/4v or 41/41v, I recommend going with the 41/41v route. As mentioned already, the 41 has plenty of bass punch. To me, it lacks a lot of the negatives that are characteristic of most other hypers. You already have a superb pair of cards.

[bluntforcetrauma]

I dont know how people " fit" the 744 in venues.

Now reading on the schoeps site i just dont know enough to understand the difference between the 41 and 41v.  Under jedi taping condtitions does the  " v" offer a better choice over the non " v"

hope that makes sense

thanks

[sparkey]

There is a frequency bump around the vocal range, I believe, which colors the recordings a bit differently than a flat response.

I dont know how people " fit" the 744 in venues.

Now reading on the schoeps site i just dont know enough to understand the difference between the 41 and 41v.  Under jedi taping condtitions does the  " v" offer a better choice over the non " v"

hope that makes sense

thanks

[H₂O]

Some say it's easier to conceal v caps to run in the brim of a cap, etc - then pointed outward in a hat (i.e. on top of the head, etc).  So in Jedi situations this can be advantageous.


One negative on the v's is resale value - from my past experience (selling 4v's) you can take a bigger percentage hit on resale on the v's (my new bought 4v's are the only Schoeps gear I have lost my ass on).


I would suggest buying v's used if possible.

[sparkey]

you can take a bigger percentage hit on resale on the v's (my new bought 4v's are the only Schoeps gear I have lost my ass on).

That's why I love buying used microphones....they really don't depreciate (hopefully).

[su6oxone]

There is a frequency bump around the vocal range, I believe, which colors the recordings a bit differently than a flat response.

Only for the 4Vs, not the 41Vs...

[sparkey]

There is a frequency bump around the vocal range, I believe, which colors the recordings a bit differently than a flat response.

Only for the 4Vs, not the 41Vs...

So the only difference between the 41's and the 41v's is the side addressing capsule?

[DSatz]

Arriving here late; sorry.

> So the only difference between the 41's and the 41v's is the side addressing capsule?

Hmm--not quite. There's a small response difference in the upper midrange, which I think most careful listeners would probably hear on a direct comparison over a good playback system. But it's definitely less than the degree of difference which Schoeps designed into the MK 4V as compared with the (already long-existing) MK 4.

Also, all Schoeps' vertical capsules begin their ultimate high-frequency rolloff somewhat before the "axial" capsules do, and in the horizontal plane they have less high-frequency emphasis in their diffuse-field response. Of those two factors the second is much more important audibly than the first, unless you make recordings in order to slow them down by a large factor either for research purposes or for use as sound effects.

Finally, I just want to point out that if you have two MK 41V capsules, the best placement for stereo recording isn't immediately adjacent/side-by-side, since they seem to interfere with each other's response when placed that way (more than I've found with other capsule types, at least). Even a small space between the capsules can make quite a difference to the "feel" of the recording.

--best regards

[yug du nord]

Finally, I just want to point out that if you have two MK 41V capsules, the best placement for stereo recording isn't immediately adjacent/side-by-side, since they seem to interfere with each other's response when placed that way (more than I've found with other capsule types, at least). Even a small space between the capsules can make quite a difference to the "feel" of the recording.

Is this theory for the 41V's only?  Doesn't Schoeps make "side-by-side" mounts for the V's.....  which they consider XY mounts (since the capsules are so close in proximity)? 

I have a friend who runs 41V's in Schoeps MidSide mount (meant for horizontal mounting, but he uses it for vertical mounting)....  and most of the time his recordings sound tremendous.... . but occasionally, that same set-up can sound really thin at times.  It's the only way that he's ever run the 41V's, and isn't much into experimentation....  he prefers the closer, non-angled, mono sound I guess....  but maybe he has the occasional "poor" result because of this response issue that you mention??.

[DSatz]

Well, I'm not really basing this on any particular body of theory, other than the well-known fact that any solid object disturbs the sound field in which it is placed, at any frequencies above the point where any dimension of the object is equal to half a wavelength of the sound. Lower-frequency waves simply flow around such an object, but higher-frequency waves are subject to reflection and/or diffraction. This can alter both the directional pattern (at certain frequencies) and (at certain pickup angles) the frequency response--characteristics which of course depend on one another.

As you may know, Schoeps sells a miniature stereo microphone called the CMXY 4V which has two MK 4V capsules mounted side-by-side on a gear-tooth arrangement that lets the user set any desired angle between their axes. This can be seen on http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/cmxy . This microphone works quite well even though there obviously has to be some deformation of response simply because each capsule has a solid object (i.e. the other capsule) sitting so close beside it. Anyway, without going into too much detail, let me just say that a few years ago I had the use of a CMXY that had been specially built with supercardioid MK 41V capsules--and it didn't live up to my hopes, nor those of people at Schoeps; it didn't give a particularly good account of how those capsules are capable of sounding when they're used more appropriately.

So I really wouldn't recommend placing a pair of those capsules directly side-by-side; I think it would be better to place them tip-to-tip, or else to put an inch or two or three of space between them, with appropriate adjustments of the angle between their main axes to match the spacing. Nor would I recommend placing two figure-8 capsules or microphones immediately side-by-side either; head-to-head is a much better arrangement for them as well, since it gets them each out of the other one's way for the most part.

And to the extent that a head-to-head pair of directional capsules still creates some obstruction for the highest-frequency sound waves, at least it is a symmetrical arrangement, so that the directional patterns of the two capsules can still be as intended in the horizontal plane at least.

--best regards

[yug du nord]

^I am aware of the CMXY....  it's always intrigued me a bit.  And the CMXY is the reason that I consider my friend's set-up as an XY set-up.  This is the mount that my friend uses for his 41V's....  he runs the mount vertical.  I just figured that I'd follow up my question with this photo....   as always...  thanks for the info! 

http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/ams22