Topic: Schoeps mk6 figure 8 frequency response curve.

[noahbickart]

Does anyone (Dsatz?) have a good copy of the frequency response curve for the mk6 on figure 8 mode? I'd like to create a EQ preset to flatten out the response of the cap (e.g. boost the bass) so as to give a little bit more air and spacial cues to my M-S pulls.

While I'm at it I might do the same for the mk41.

How to people feel about capsule specific EQ on Audience recordings? It seems like a good way to have the best of both worlds, the directionality of the cap, without the ensuing bass roll-off.

[page]

Does anyone (Dsatz?) have a good copy of the frequency response curve for the mk6 on figure 8 mode? I'd like to create a EQ preset to flatten out the response of the cap (e.g. boost the bass) so as to give a little bit more air and spacial cues to my M-S pulls.

Tried using the official schoeps MS decoder? It supposidly does a correction during processing. Not sure if it does one for the MK6 or just the MK8.

[noahbickart]

I thought that was only for *double* m-s.

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I thought that was only for *double* m-s.

it's intended that way, but you could feed a silent channel as the third input if it's absolutely required, then discard the resulting channels 3 through 6. The third to last sentance on their page mentions how it is beneficial to non-DMS setups because of it's ability to control pattern and angle separately, so it may just be feed it a standard 2 when you don't need the rest.

http://schoeps.de/en/products/dms_plugin/application

[noahbickart]

ok, found it. Google is faster than ts.com on rare occasions.

http://www.m221b.com/Schoeps/CMC56/MK6.jpg

[yug du nord]

ok, found it. Google is faster than ts.com on rare occasions.

http://www.m221b.com/Schoeps/CMC56/MK6.jpg

thanks.

[Gutbucket]

I'd like to create a EQ preset to flatten out the response of the cap (e.g. boost the bass) so as to give a little bit more air and spacial cues to my M-S pulls.

While I'm at it I might do the same for the mk41.

How to people feel about capsule specific EQ on Audience recordings? It seems like a good way to have the best of both worlds, the directionality of the cap, without the ensuing bass roll-off.

Since it is often suggested to boost the bottom of the side channel or M/S for esthetic reasons of increased spaciousness anyway, I'd not worry too much about shooting for a target flat response and instead simply EQ the M/S components to taste. 

As I understand it the DMS plugin corrects for the mk8 (side) response, which is probably close enough at least as a starting point (you may want to add more).  It may work as a standard 2 channel M/S processor as well (and apply that response correction), but I believe that to control pattern and angle separately it needs all three source signals.  The mk41's (mid) response roll-off at the bottom might actually be benefitial in allowing more boost of the side channel for spaciousness while keeping a near flat frequency balance overall.

One practical thing to be aware of is that the increased handling and wind noise suseptibility of supercardioid and figure 8 capsules in combination with their reduced sensitivity to the bottom couple octaves where those things tend to manifest means that whatever information you are boosting is down there might be of questionable quality.  Just another reason to use your ears as the final judgement.

[yug du nord]

The Double M/S plug-in works just fine for standard two-channel M/S.  You can adjust both pattern and only the angle....  pretty sweet!!!


edit:  correction of info.

[Gutbucket]

The Double M/S plug-in works just fine for standard two-channel M/S.  You can adjust both pattern and angle....  pretty sweet!!!

I'm really curious how that can be possible, if anyone knows.  How can it derive an independant omni component who's level is not tied intrinsically to the ratio of the single mid mic?  An independant omni component is the key to unlinking the connection between pattern and angle.

[page]

The Double M/S plug-in works just fine for standard two-channel M/S.  You can adjust both pattern and angle....  pretty sweet!!!

I'm really curious how that can be possible, if anyone knows.  How can it derive an independant omni component who's level is not tied intrinsically to the ratio of the single mid mic?  An independant omni component is the key to unlinking the connection between pattern and angle.

it's the power of the dark side.

  ba duh bump.
I'm here all week. 

[noahbickart]

This is the point of the thread in which dsatz enters and schools us all.

[yug du nord]

The Double M/S plug-in works just fine for standard two-channel M/S.  You can adjust both pattern and angle....  pretty sweet!!!

I'm really curious how that can be possible, if anyone knows.  How can it derive an independant omni component who's level is not tied intrinsically to the ratio of the single mid mic?  An independant omni component is the key to unlinking the connection between pattern and angle.

I don't know??  I just started using the DMS plug-in....  and it seems to me that with a raw M/S file (M=cardioid, S=Fig8) file, I can dial in (visually/audibly) anything from mono Fig8 > every stereo pattern in between > mono Omni.  And at the same time, adjust the angle of the pattern from 0deg.-180deg.  I think that this all occurs within the XY pattern.  I don't think that spacing can be added within the stereo pattern. 
Does that make sense? 


edit:  correction of information....                                       

[Gutbucket]

Yeah it does.  I haven't used that plugin.  Does it have a dedicated two channel Mid/Side configuration or is it always in Dual Mid/Side mode, the same as it would be if there was a file for a rear facing microphone, with the only difference being that the file for that rear facing mic is not present?

If the second.. I'd guess the plugin is doing it's DMS matrixing thing just as if a file is there, and displaying graphically what would accuratey represent the angles and mic patterns if it was, but what you'd actually get out of it would be exaclty the same as a standard two channel M/S decoder- extremes of nothing but sideways figure-8 fed to both channels (mono figure-8 side) or nothing but forward facing cardioid fed to both channels (mono carioid mid) and between them useful stereo settings with a constantly changing pattern varying with angle.  The additional controls wouldn't work correctly, but the confusing thing would be that they would still change the sound- the angle knob changing both pattern and angle for the sound output but displaying only a visual angle change, and the pattern knob displaying only pattern change, but really changing both as well. 

Can you dial it for a mono mid (meaning no side input used at all, which is probably done by specifying a mic angle of zero, or perhaps alternately by specifying zero width), then adjust that mono mid pattern between omni to figure-8?   It should change the visual display from a forward facing figure-8 to an omni and back but does it change the sound (other than it's loudness) at all?  Does the timbre remain the same but the signal level decrease towards the midde of the adjustment and return to full level at the other extreme?

[noahbickart]

Still doesn't make any sense to me.

The way i understand the double MS, there are two cardioid elements one at 0 degrees and one at 180. By summing and phase, one can arrive at a single, mono microphone pattern- in largely the same way dual diaphragm LD microphones can have a continuously variable pattern (let's not debate weather or not the "omni" pattern created is "real").

In the schoeps DMS decoder, that rear facing cardioid microphone can also give rear channel information.

But, if there is no rear facing element, how can the pattern be varied at all?

[DSatz]

Hi. Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner--I'm currently traveling, and I'll have to keep this reply brief.

First of all, about equalizing the bass response of a figure-8: It can definitely be worth doing this, but the results might not be quite what you expect. Think of the spectrum of first-order directional patterns, from omni (pure pressure response) through cardioid (half pressure, half pressure gradient) to figure-8 (pure pressure gradient a/k/a velocity response). The effect of a bass boost on a recording made with the different types of capsule depends on where the capsule is on that spectrum to a surprising extent. The sonic effect of a given bass boost on a figure-8 recording will be considerably less than the sonic effect of the identical bass boost that you apply to a recording made with pressure (omni) capsules.

A person might have to make the actual experiment before choosing whether to believe or disbelieve what I just said. I know, it makes no obvious sense unless we get into a whole discussion of vectors and standing waves, but your ears will pick up the truth more quickly.

The fact is, there's a pretty wide range of EQ settings that can be helpful, depending on the pickup that you start out with and the effect you want to go for. I'm not being philosophical here--the fact is, it still surprises me how wide a range of possible bass boost settings can be considered in a given situation, all of which sound different from one another but all of which are plausible in one way or another sonically. I don't think there's a meaningful "orthodox" answer.

--Gotta run. More in a day or so when I'm back home. -- The Schoeps "Double M/S" plug-in isn't magic; it only can let you control the image width separately from the reverberation ratio when you give it three suitable input signals; it can't do that trick with only a single M and an S; it needs both the forward and the rear-facing M microphones. But the output can be either surround or two-channel stereo, which is what its  two modes are about.

--best regards