Topic: Replacing my Coresound binaurals?

[colinw]

Hi everyone - I am looking for some opinions, and feedback. I know the Coresound and Church Audio debate is one that is common, as well as other mic brands on the forums.

I currently run an old set of Coresound binaurals that I have had for more than 10 years now using the battery box that came with them, and record with a TASCAM DR07mkii. I have had good luck with this rig, and the recordings sound quite good. Recently I have taped Melvin Seals and JGB, Levon Helm, and others. The results seem good at GA type shows where I can get in the sweet spot or in front of a stack to tape.

Here is where I admit my noobishness! Are the binaural mics I have omnis or cardiods? I really don't know much about taping or mics aside from what I am able to pick up on the forum. I assume they are omnis as they seem to pick up noise all around. The ones I use are the old ones offered by Coresound, not the newer versions. I seem to recall paying about $250 for them.

I tape locally and am one of the only people that does, so I want to be able to capture everything I go to from a small club, to theatres, to larger arena shows.

What is the next logical step for mics? Would I get an improvement in sound moving to a Church mic set up? The CA11s or 14s? SHould I use theCS  binaurals for certain situations and another mic for different situations?

Thanks for any help and suggestions.

[ilduclo]

hi, Colin

you've got omni mics. You've also had WAY better luck with the length of time your CSB's have held up, I got decent recordings out of mine, but I thought the build quality was poor, they went bad 2x in 3 years before I quit repairing them and went to another brand. I use dpa 4061's (also omnis) now, and they are still running strong after 8 years, so I recommend them (or 4060's) highly. A little more $$, maybe 800 new from dpa or 200-500 used.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

The Church mics are nice. The CA-14's are the better of the two options, and not too expensive.

What is your budget?

[Craig T]

I've never owned the CA11's, but I've used the Coresound and DPA 4061 and still own CA14's.  I recommend the CA14's over all of these.  Get the cards and omnis.  The 4061's were great for their size, but only in the rarest of situations would they pull a better recording.  The CA14's are far more forgiving of their environment, especially the cards.  In those circumstances where you can get away with omnis, the CA14 omnis will sound more natural than the CA14 cards.  IMO, obviously.

[colinw]

thanks folks. For now I don't mind spending up to about $400 or $500. From the posts above the CA14s are recommended.

CraigT - when you say get both the omnis and cards, are they separate mics totally or are they configurable? If they are separate maybe I will buy the cards, and use the CSB for when I need an omni? That being said, I am not too clear on when exactly that would be!!!

I don't see much information on the cost of the CS14s on the website, is there another source of information? I would like to understand the size, cost, specs, etc of them and do some research. I don't want to email Chris yet until I know more about what I want.

Wha is the general consensus on sound? If I go with the CA14s will I see a noticable improvement in recording quality over the CSB binaural omnis I am running now? I understand there are lots of variables, but side by side, all things being equal, will the CA14s sound better?

Thanks for all the feedback, this is great.

[ilduclo]

I gotta disagree with Craig, the Church mics are definitely a step below the dpa's. I've heard quite a few of the ca14 sets and they are not nearly as clear as dpa's. But, I agree that a decent branching out of your mics would be to add tha ca14 cards and keep the csb's. They cs mics will work well in loud band situations or even also in very quiet settings. (The only failures for omni mics are, as you noticed, situations where there is a lot of talking around you or glasses clinking, dishwashers, etc.)

[Belexes]

Didn't someone do a comp DPA4061 to CA-14 Omni? I found that very helpful.  If you have the cash for the DPA's new, then by all means otherwise the CA-14 omni's are very nice in their price point.

DPA's have a certain coloration to them that some folks here like, and the same can be said for most other mics.

[jlykos]

One option that you may want to look into are the Sonic Studios DSM series microphones.  I had a pair and thought they sounded really fantastic, better than Core Sound or Church Audio.  I eventually got rid of mine because they couldn't handle the nuclear SPL environments in which I was recording (doom metal shows) and went to a set of Core Sound dpa 4061s.  If you are taping bands like the ones that you describe in your post, you should be fine with the Sonic Studios.

[colinw]

thank you again everyone. It sounds as though the best bet for my current needs are CA-14 cards. I can always use my old Coresound omni binaurals if I need them.

Now, I have read a lot about battery boxes, preamps, etc. What do I need to go with the CA-14 cards?

I have a battery that I use with the CS binaurals, which is switchable from flat to filter, and uses a 9 volt battery. Do I even need a battery box for the CA14s when using them with the Tascam DR07mkii recorder ?

[hi and lo]

Now, I have read a lot about battery boxes, preamps, etc. What do I need to go with the CA-14 cards?

I have a battery that I use with the CS binaurals, which is switchable from flat to filter, and uses a 9 volt battery. Do I even need a battery box for the CA14s when using them with the Tascam DR07mkii recorder ?

Your CSB battery box won't work with anything except CSBs. It's wired in reverse polarity.

For me personally, I'd get the CA-14s wired to a 6-pin minixlr and run them with a Tinybox.

[acidjack]

^^ LOL at your sig.

One advantage of a 6pin mini-XLR config and a tinybox is that you could upgrade to a wider variety of mics later and keep the tinybox.   It seems you record open taping bands to some degree, so you may eventually want "fullsize" mics.  The tinybox is a fine preamp with larger mics as well as the smaller guys..

...although I don't know if the tinybox is just 9v, is it??? (I think not)  Wouldn't he need to step down the power also?

[F.O.Bean]

I've never owned the CA11's, but I've used the Coresound and DPA 4061 and still own CA14's.  I recommend the CA14's over all of these.  Get the cards and omnis.  The 4061's were great for their size, but only in the rarest of situations would they pull a better recording.  The CA14's are far more forgiving of their environment, especially the cards.  In those circumstances where you can get away with omnis, the CA14 omnis will sound more natural than the CA14 cards.  IMO, obviously.

100%Agreed!

[colinw]

OK, all set to pull the trigger on the CA14s. I was thinking cards, as I can use my CSBs for omni recording when I need to.

Can someone help this noob - what situations are best for cards vs. omnis? From what I understand if I am FOB or near a stack I will get best results with cards, but further back or in a larger venue omnis will produce a better overall representation of the sound? I am just trying to decide if cards are the right choice, or if I should go with omnis to fully replace my coresound setup? Maybe both cards and omnis, but first I need to figure out which situations require each kind of mic. Thanks again everyone for your input, looking forward to putting my order in to Chris Church.

[F.O.Bean]

You have that backwards IMO. Omnis are for up close in the DFC sweet spot or in a good location. Cards are for less optimal mic locations

[colinw]

Ha, that's what I get for trying to sound like I know what I am talking about! I assume the cards would get a decent pull from up close or the sweet spot as well, but would cut out some ambient outside noise if recording from further back then? I get to record a lot from FOB in GA settings, so I want to make sure the mics will handle wherever I am.

[F.O.Bean]

Yeah, I even run hypers DFC in the sweet spot and they AMAZE ME in that setting. But since I bought CA14 cards n omnis, I cant wait to run mk41>Sax & CA14>CA9100 and to  hear the difference. Im also buying Busman BSC2 Active mics to run alongside my Schoeps setup You can NEVER have too many options

[newplanet7]

Ha, that's what I get for trying to sound like I know what I am talking about! I assume the cards would get a decent pull from up close or the sweet spot as well, but would cut out some ambient outside noise if recording from further back then? I get to record a lot from FOB in GA settings, so I want to make sure the mics will handle wherever I am.

Cards deliver in the same exact places as omni's. Omnis wouldn't sound great in all the locations as cards.
However, if you get the right location and happen to have omnis, go for it.
When used in the right circumstance or mixed in with say another card or hyper source they shine.
Personally, I've only run omni's in optimal locations.

[F.O.Bean]

Yeah, I only tend to use omnis in outdoors so there arent any room reverbations

[aaronji]

Cards deliver in the same exact places as omni's. Omnis wouldn't sound great in all the locations as cards.

I don't think I really agree with that first statement.  In some situations, omnis just sound better than cards.  Just as in some situations, cards will sound better than omnis.

Personally, I think this is a pretty nuanced question.  Is a card the best choice for many tapers in their typical taping situation?  Yes, in my opinion.  But that's not to say that, for some tapers/situations, another polar pattern might prove more useful.

Here's what Schoeps has to say about it:

Which is the Best Capsule for ... ?

Only in rare cases can ”the” correct microphone be chosen unequivocally. The recording location, the positions of sound sources and the microphone, the atmosphere of the music or other program material and the desired effect must all be considered. Any absolute prescriptions would thus be of limited value at best. How ever, we would like to offer some ideas to guide the choice that must be made.

Our Recommendations

The most commonly used pattern for mediumdistance pickup is the cardioid (MK 4 or MK 4V). However, there may be good reasons to make a different choice. Some examples:
– Greater directivity may be required, either for the sake of a ”drier” recording or to suppress sound from adjacent instruments. In this case we recommend the supercardioid MK 41 (as long as no nearby sound source or P.A. loudspeaker is directly behind the microphone's rear lobe).
– For a broader pickup pattern, with very natural sound quality for sound arriving at the sides of the microphone and more extended low-frequency response, we recommend the MK 21 wide cardioid.
– For essentially perfect pickup of low-frequency information and room sound, we recommend the omnidirectional MK 2H or MK 2S (for moderate miking distances).
– When using directional microphones with very close placement, proximity effect must be compensated with a bass rolloff. This is especially true when miking instruments. For voice, try the MK 4S or MK 4VXS. For instruments the omnidirectional MK 2 may be of interest (no proximity effect, low sensitivity to ”popping” or solid-borne noise); for grand piano, the BLM 03 C.
– For very distant miking and/or as an ”ambience” microphone, with essentially perfect bass response: omni MK 3.
– For outdoor recording if directivity is not required (e.g. close miking), the omni MK 2S with windscreen W 5 or W 5 D will offer low sensitivity to wind, ”popping” and handling noise. If high directivity is required outdoors, the MK 41 can be used with the W 5 D, W 20 R1 or WSR MS ”basket”-type windscreens with built-in elastic suspension for mono or stereo.

And DPA's take on it:  http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Technology-Guide/Directional%20vs%20Omnidirectional%20Microphones.aspx

Really, you just need the right tool for the job.  If you can only afford one pattern, it makes sense (for many people) to get cards.  But there are also definitely conditions that will favor another pattern...

[newplanet7]

Cards deliver in the same exact places as omni's. Omnis wouldn't sound great in all the locations as cards.

I don't think I really agree with that first statement.  In some situations, omnis just sound better than cards.  Just as in some situations, cards will sound better than omnis.

But you do in fact agree with me. We are more or less saying the same thing.
I am saying that cards will perform in the same locations as omni's but you can't really flip it around and say omni's will perform where cards are needed.
In those locations where you could use omni's with great results they often do sound more natural.

[aaronji]

^^^ OK, I guess it is really just a semantic difference.  When you said "cards deliver in the same exact places as omni's", I interpreted that to mean "deliver a recording of equivalent quality".  In my opinion, there are situations where omnis clearly outperform cards, so that's why I said I didn't really agree.  And situations which clearly favor cards are the same.  Still, there is a broad area in between those two extremes where it really comes down to what you personally prefer, given the venue, music, location, crowd and how the mics will be used.  A lot of people post here that omnis require essentially perfect conditions to sound good, but I think, used well, they can give great results in less than ideal situations too (more natural, better low frequency response, better off axis response)…

I prefer to use omnis a (large) majority of the time.  A lot of that comes down to the music I record (mostly jazz), the venues (usually pretty small and with decent sound), and the crowds (usually pretty respectful and less wasted than most rock shows).   Like I suggested in my previous post, I know that puts me solidly in the minority!  I’m not the only one, though…