Topic: Help: Church Audio, Sound Professionals OR Microphone Madness (in a ~100€ range)

[LikeASong]

Hi everyone 

I would like some advice. I'm planning to record some great concerts I'm yet to attend this year (read: Arctic Monkeys, Coldplay and Bruce Springsteen - and hopefully some more) and I'm feeling like the internal mics of my Zoom Q3 HD aren't good enough to have decent recordings, so I'm considering a small investment in a pair of external mics. And that's where I kindly ask your for some advice, as I'm still a complete newbie

I want a pair of stealth-ish binaural mics, with none power supply requirements (if possible - I sincerely don't know if my recorder supplies enough current to power some or any of those mics which claim to need phantom power). I also want the mics to be comfortable to wear/clip at myself, as I'm planning to actually enjoy the shows and not stand still like... well, like a professional taper  My budget does not exceed the  90-110€ range (make that ~150 US dollars).

I have heard beauties of the Church Audio mics, but before getting of those I would like to know your opinions on Mic. Madness and Sound Professionals.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category/110
http://microphonemadness.com/categories/mini_binaural_stereo.html

How do you think they can handle high SPL's like the ones I'm going to stand at those concerts (I have a soft spot for the first rows, sorry)? Will they pick up a lot of my more-than-probable sing along?

What about the so-called "self powered" mics like this ones? http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category/106/mics

One last thing, if a mic claims to need a power supply but you don't provide, what does exactly happen? Does the recording take place at all? The sound becomes 'brick-wall' or something?



Sorry for so many questions in a row, but of course you're free to answer the ones you want and ignore the ones you don't THANK YOU a lot in advance!! 

[adrianf74]

Hi,

Glad to see that you've realized that internal mics are rubbish. 

As much as you don't want to have to deal with power supply requirements, the best results are yielded with a battery box at the VERY LEAST.  There are many options out there that aren't much bigger than the size of the battery so if you're afraid of having to smuggle too much gear into the venue, don't.  The battery boxes that are out there will save you from distortion if you ever go to a smaller club and always ensure that your mics are receiving the right amount of power.  I will -- and many others around here will, too -- suggest that you buy a battery box at the very least.

So you want to spend about $150US all-in.  Considering shipping to Europe will run about $25 on a good day, you're not leaving yourself very much room for the cost of mics.  I've used some SoundPros gear and am not a fan.  I used to run the SP-CMC-8 and was never really sold on the sound captured with them.  These mics were an older version using the AT-933 capules which many deem to be better than the AT-943 which is currently used.

For Microphone Madness, I'd only touch their "Highline" series and nothing else.   Cheap mics sound like cheap mics (unfortunately). 

Being in the first rows using cardioids can be a little tricky (as can using omnis that close as well).  The best recordings are usually made from about rows 8-15 (or even further back) at larger venues.

Cardoid mics will deflect more of what's around you but have a less natural sound (to my ears, anyhow).  The advantage is that talkers, screamers, and singalongs will be caught less than if you used omnidirectional mics.  Omnis sound more natural to me, however, they will pick up talkers, screamers and people singing drunk right next to you.

The self powered mics you mention -- EEEEK.  If you're serious about recording and heading in the right direction, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THEM for this use.

If you try to use "plug in power" without a battery box, you'll end up with a recording that likely doesn't power your mics fully so the quality is reduced.  You could also end up with distortion (brickwalling) as well.   

Ultimately, since you want to spend around $150, I'd suggest getting a pair of CA-14 cardiods (or omnis) with a battery box.  Chris Church has a couple of "small" options that aren't very expensive.  If you're concerned about the size of the mics, you could go with the CA-11mkII cardioids as they're slightly smaller than the CA-14's.  For the record, I've done many recordings (both open and not) and have *NEVER* had an issue with these and being noticed.  Even if you spend $10 or $15 more than you wanted to after shipping, the Church Audio mics are the best bang for your buck in your price range.  Just keep in mind that you'll have a lead-time of 4+ weeks before Chris ships out your order as he builds everything himself by hand.   

Hopefully this helps (and I'm sure some others will chime in as well).
 

[swordfish]

Hi,

Glad to see that you've realized that internal mics are rubbish. 

As much as you don't want to have to deal with power supply requirements, the best results are yielded with a battery box at the VERY LEAST.  There are many options out there that aren't much bigger than the size of the battery so if you're afraid of having to smuggle too much gear into the venue, don't.  The battery boxes that are out there will save you from distortion if you ever go to a smaller club and always ensure that your mics are receiving the right amount of power.  I will -- and many others around here will, too -- suggest that you buy a battery box at the very least.

So you want to spend about $150US all-in.  Considering shipping to Europe will run about $25 on a good day, you're not leaving yourself very much room for the cost of mics.  I've used some SoundPros gear and am not a fan.  I used to run the SP-CMC-8 and was never really sold on the sound captured with them.  These mics were an older version using the AT-933 capules which many deem to be better than the AT-943 which is currently used.

For Microphone Madness, I'd only touch their "Highline" series and nothing else.   Cheap mics sound like cheap mics (unfortunately). 

Being in the first rows using cardioids can be a little tricky (as can using omnis that close as well).  The best recordings are usually made from about rows 8-15 (or even further back) at larger venues.

Cardoid mics will deflect more of what's around you but have a less natural sound (to my ears, anyhow).  The advantage is that talkers, screamers, and singalongs will be caught less than if you used omnidirectional mics.  Omnis sound more natural to me, however, they will pick up talkers, screamers and people singing drunk right next to you.

The self powered mics you mention -- EEEEK.  If you're serious about recording and heading in the right direction, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THEM for this use.

If you try to use "plug in power" without a battery box, you'll end up with a recording that likely doesn't power your mics fully so the quality is reduced.  You could also end up with distortion (brickwalling) as well.   

Ultimately, since you want to spend around $150, I'd suggest getting a pair of CA-14 cardiods (or omnis) with a battery box.  Chris Church has a couple of "small" options that aren't very expensive.  If you're concerned about the size of the mics, you could go with the CA-11mkII cardioids as they're slightly smaller than the CA-14's.  For the record, I've done many recordings (both open and not) and have *NEVER* had an issue with these and being noticed.  Even if you spend $10 or $15 more than you wanted to after shipping, the Church Audio mics are the best bang for your buck in your price range.  Just keep in mind that you'll have a lead-time of 4+ weeks before Chris ships out your order as he builds everything himself by hand.   

Hopefully this helps (and I'm sure some others will chime in as well).

2nd that

[yates7592]

Yes, CA-14 cards and battery box is the way to go, you won't be disappointed.

[pillowman]

Hi,

Glad to see that you've realized that internal mics are rubbish. 

As much as you don't want to have to deal with power supply requirements, the best results are yielded with a battery box at the VERY LEAST.  There are many options out there that aren't much bigger than the size of the battery so if you're afraid of having to smuggle too much gear into the venue, don't.  The battery boxes that are out there will save you from distortion if you ever go to a smaller club and always ensure that your mics are receiving the right amount of power.  I will -- and many others around here will, too -- suggest that you buy a battery box at the very least.

So you want to spend about $150US all-in.  Considering shipping to Europe will run about $25 on a good day, you're not leaving yourself very much room for the cost of mics.  I've used some SoundPros gear and am not a fan.  I used to run the SP-CMC-8 and was never really sold on the sound captured with them.  These mics were an older version using the AT-933 capules which many deem to be better than the AT-943 which is currently used.

For Microphone Madness, I'd only touch their "Highline" series and nothing else.   Cheap mics sound like cheap mics (unfortunately). 

Being in the first rows using cardioids can be a little tricky (as can using omnis that close as well).  The best recordings are usually made from about rows 8-15 (or even further back) at larger venues.

Cardoid mics will deflect more of what's around you but have a less natural sound (to my ears, anyhow).  The advantage is that talkers, screamers, and singalongs will be caught less than if you used omnidirectional mics.  Omnis sound more natural to me, however, they will pick up talkers, screamers and people singing drunk right next to you.

The self powered mics you mention -- EEEEK.  If you're serious about recording and heading in the right direction, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THEM for this use.

If you try to use "plug in power" without a battery box, you'll end up with a recording that likely doesn't power your mics fully so the quality is reduced.  You could also end up with distortion (brickwalling) as well.   

Ultimately, since you want to spend around $150, I'd suggest getting a pair of CA-14 cardiods (or omnis) with a battery box.  Chris Church has a couple of "small" options that aren't very expensive.  If you're concerned about the size of the mics, you could go with the CA-11mkII cardioids as they're slightly smaller than the CA-14's.  For the record, I've done many recordings (both open and not) and have *NEVER* had an issue with these and being noticed.  Even if you spend $10 or $15 more than you wanted to after shipping, the Church Audio mics are the best bang for your buck in your price range.  Just keep in mind that you'll have a lead-time of 4+ weeks before Chris ships out your order as he builds everything himself by hand.   

Hopefully this helps (and I'm sure some others will chime in as well).

nothing to add - so very true
pillowman

[aaronji]

I also want the mics to be comfortable to wear/clip at myself, as I'm planning to actually enjoy the shows and not stand still like... well, like a professional taper 

To be honest, you have to sacrifice a little to get a decent recording.  If you're not willing to do that (which is completely understandable), I would suggest just leaving the gear at home and really enjoying the show...

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category/110
http://microphonemadness.com/categories/mini_binaural_stereo.html

I don't have any experience with the Sound Pros mics, but I have a pair of the MM-HLSOs from Microphone Madness (and they will ship to Europe).  I think they are pretty good (small too) and I have heard that the Sennheiser-based cards from them are good too...A bit out of your quoted price range, though.

[LikeASong]

Thank you all very much for your kind and clarifying answers, specially Adrian for your long post.


So, CA-14's and a battery box might be my way to go? Well, that's pretty affordable, although Chris doesn't seem to have the 14's listed on his website. I might PM him soon, just to get a drift of how much would it be a pair of 14s plus shipping plus the battery box.


Another question if you don't mind  :  are DYI battery boxes actually reliable? A friend of mine says that they can provide oscilating power&tension to the mics, causing the sensitivity to change and therefore making the recording pretty unstable. Any tips, comments on that? I am proficient with soldering iron and I have the materials to build a BB, I just want to know if a home-made one will be good enough for powering the CA-14 mics or if it will end up making the mics sound like cheapo Sony DS70's hahaha...


Thanks a lot once again   

[TimeBandit]

One last thing, if a mic claims to need a power supply but you don't provide, what does exactly happen? Does the recording take place at all? The sound becomes 'brick-wall' or something?

On some places (Soundprofessionals for example) in the data sheet is explained how much SPL the mics can take with Battery Box / Preamp, or just Plugin Power from the recorder.

If you wan to record very loud stuff, nothing gets around a battery box +  good mics. Church Ca14 are just fine for that.

IF you want to step in to recording of not so loud "unplugged" acoustic events, a preamp with adjustable gain is the option (Battery Box = fixed "gain")

If you order other mics (especially used) you have to find out (via asking the seller) if they are low sens modded. Most people ordering AT Capsule based mics at soundpros do the mistake snd forget that because you have to put the low sens mod as extra "item" in the shopping cart there (SP-ATMIC-Modif or what this is called).

Shipping from US to EU needs around 1 week if you have luck or up to 4 weeks or more if parcel is stuck in the customs. So don't order too late before the concert.

For a point placing the mics .. best option are clipping them as high as possible on your body. some mics are so tiny you can wear them on the frame on the glasses or in ear like headphone or be a bit creative yourself.

[absnj]

If you are looking to save a little money, you might consider Chris's CA-11's, which are smaller than the CA-14's, which have a built-on windscreen and also offer the option of inter-changeable caps (cards/omnis).  I have run the CA-11's into an Edirol R09HR without a batery box or pre-amp, but would not advise to skip the BB.  Although you will spend more money up front, I would go with the suggestions above and go for the CA-14 cards and a pre-amp, rather than a battery box, since you will probably end up upgrading anyway.

Check the yard sale for a good deal.

[dorrcoq]

You might want to re-check your EURO to US dollar exchange rate    100 EURO today is only worth about $126 US.

[F.O.Bean]

Yes, CA-14 cards and battery box is the way to go, you won't be disappointed.

[LikeASong]

Thank you all very much, all your answers are very instructive and highly appreciated 


It seems like CA-11/14's are indeed the best option. One last question before I contact Chris directly: how do CA11's compare to SP-CMC-4's or CMC-8's? There's a good offer on those over the Yard Sale and a user from here told me by PM that he prefer those mics over CAs, having used both extensively.

By the way, he also told me that he/she has used the CMC-8 mics without using a battery box with acceptable results - although I won't take his/her word on that as I'm already convinced by you all that a BB is neccesary 

[Javier Cinakowski]

The church gear is very good and a great value.  I do recommend.  However, the AT's(as well as the sennheiser, sanken and countryman) are on a higher shelf imo.

An off topic joke:
Beans opinions always seem to revolve around gear he currently owns.  ;-)

483s are like a forgotten god!

:-)

[F.O.Bean]

An off topic joke:
Beans opinions always seem to revolve around gear he currently owns.  ;-)

483s are like a forgotten god!

:-)

So true Murph

[TimeBandit]

Thank you all very much, all your answers are very instructive and highly appreciated 

By the way, he also told me that he/she has used the CMC-8 mics without using a battery box with acceptable results - although I won't take his/her word on that as I'm already convinced by you all that a BB is neccesary 

Then he was lucky he taped in a situation where the SPL just were below the border when running the mics without preamp / battery box. The mics can be used without battery box but will only bring their full performance on high SPL with battery box / preamp.

[adrianf74]

Thank you all very much for your kind and clarifying answers, specially Adrian for your long post.

So, CA-14's and a battery box might be my way to go? Well, that's pretty affordable, although Chris doesn't seem to have the 14's listed on his website. I might PM him soon, just to get a drift of how much would it be a pair of 14s plus shipping plus the battery box.

Another question if you don't mind   :  are DYI battery boxes actually reliable? A friend of mine says that they can provide oscilating power&tension to the mics, causing the sensitivity to change and therefore making the recording pretty unstable. Any tips, comments on that? I am proficient with soldering iron and I have the materials to build a BB, I just want to know if a home-made one will be good enough for powering the CA-14 mics or if it will end up making the mics sound like cheapo Sony DS70's hahaha...

It seems like CA-11/14's are indeed the best option. One last question before I contact Chris directly: how do CA11's compare to SP-CMC-4's or CMC-8's? There's a good offer on those over the Yard Sale and a user from here told me by PM that he prefer those mics over CAs, having used both extensively.

By the way, he also told me that he/she has used the CMC-8 mics without using a battery box with acceptable results - although I won't take his/her word on that as I'm already convinced by you all that a BB is neccesary 

You're most certainly welcome. 

You need to PM Chris here on TS.COM or e-mail him and refer to the site.  Check the Retail Space for his latest sales and you'll see what he's charging.  He recently had a CA-14 and battery box for pretty cheap.  His prices on his site (or fleaBay) have NOTHING to do with what he sells to us for. 

I would say CA-14 > CMC-4 and CA-11 <> CMC-8.  I've owned the older CMC-8's and they are CRAP compared to the CA-14's (and they used the better capsule as I'd previously mentioned).

DIY Battery Boxes are fine but I'd rather buy something from somebody who knows what they're doing and who builds these things for a living (Chris Church, for example).  As far as using the CMC-8's without a battery box, I wouldn't -- even with the low-sensitivity Mod (which Chris came up with).  Any rock or pop or electified show would be safest with a battery box.  You could spend the extra money for a preamp but I find that I hardly have to gain up on the preamp so it's really a waste of cash especially when you're on a fixed budget.  I would look at the CA-14 and the battery box.  I think that'd serve you perfectly.  Honestly, the battery box doesn't add much more weight to your gear and you'll be happy you had one -- espcecially for that killer show where it overloaded on you and you wish you had. 

[TimeBandit]

the preamp is a option if your current recorder doesn't have gain setting on line-in, so you can dial in the gain on the preamp.  the gain wheel on the ca preamp is not that easy to move so even hidden in the pocket it should stay resistant.

or even recording acoustic if the recorder's gain is too noisy you should use the gain of the preamp at first instance.

[LikeASong]

Thank you all once again  Specially Adrian again and TimeBandit.

Regarding TimeBandit's last post, yes, my recorder -Zoom Q3HD- has a gain setting and it can be set as Low (for loud audio sources), High (for lower ones) and Auto (it auto-corrects the gain according to the changes in volume). I have set it at low during all the recordings I've done with it and it didn't distort a single time - although it had some serious problems with the bass overload on Coldplay, but that might be due to me being in first row, 1'5 meters away to the PA stacks 

OK, I'm going to write Chris asking for an invoice on a battery box and the CA-11's or 14's. If it's not too high I'll get it without a second thought


I'll be glad to share my recordings and experiences with you, and here's looking forward to keep on learning from you all. Thanks!

[TimeBandit]

just my thought. i would switch  the zoom gear to tascam Dr5 / dr7 (mkII), or roland r-05 or sony m10 or olympus LS11 / LS5/ LS3. better build quality and internal circuits.

If you used that zoom  for videos get an additional panasonic zs3/ zs7 (us modell with no video limit) and mix the video and audio source later.

and switch off everything what is called "auto xyz" like gain, voice activation etc. they are foreward designed for voice dictaphone usings. one exception the limiter on the m10 which handles nice and can be left on as last security.

[LikeASong]

The Zoom is quite versatile and it records video in HD (720p or 1080p), plus its internals ain't that bad for home recording, so I won't be switching it for anything anytime soon. When my budget isn't that limited, I will get a Tascam DR40 or a Sony PCM10, I know they're bar better recorders than the Zoom, just.....not for now   (Unless you have a free Tascam lying on your desktop who needs desperately a home ) Just kidding. Thanks anyway for the advice, timebandit

[absnj]

Thank you all once again  Specially Adrian again and TimeBandit.

Regarding TimeBandit's last post, yes, my recorder -Zoom Q3HD- has a gain setting and it can be set as Low (for loud audio sources), High (for lower ones) and Auto (it auto-corrects the gain according to the changes in volume). I have set it at low during all the recordings I've done with it and it didn't distort a single time - although it had some serious problems with the bass overload on Coldplay, but that might be due to me being in first row, 1'5 meters away to the PA stacks 

OK, I'm going to write Chris asking for an invoice on a battery box and the CA-11's or 14's. If it's not too high I'll get it without a second thought


I'll be glad to share my recordings and experiences with you, and here's looking forward to keep on learning from you all. Thanks!


Here is an offer for CA-14's and preamp, located in Norway:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152785.0

[adrianf74]

I think the OP's already on this...

[LikeASong]

I think the OP's already on this...

Yes, I am Thank you anyway, absnj, appreciated!

[Church-Audio]

I think the OP's already on this...

Yes, I am Thank you anyway, absnj, appreciated!

And remember that preamp is still under warranty if you have any issues that are not from wear and tear or abuse I will replace or fix it for free.

[absnj]

I think the OP's already on this...

Yes, I am Thank you anyway, absnj, appreciated!

And remember that preamp is still under warranty if you have any issues that are not from wear and tear or abuse I will replace or fix it for free.

Ya gotta love a vendor who does this... Thanks Chris!

[LikeASong]

Absolutely. Your after-sales policy is absolutely fantastic from what I've heard so far, Chris. Nevertheless, I hope I don't have to use it at all

I'm so glad I'm eventually getting a pair of CA-14s and a 9100 preamp (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152785.0) I couldn't be happier - specially since this is the very start of my own rig, what a better way to start it than with some excellent Church Audio stuff? Thank you for all those who've helped in this thread.

[TimeBandit]

there is no better way to start taping like with this equipment.

Don't forget if you got special wishes for your order just ask Chris (connector type, cabel length, clips or not etc.. )

[F.O.Bean]

Absolutely. Your after-sales policy is absolutely fantastic from what I've heard so far, Chris. Nevertheless, I hope I don't have to use it at all

I'm so glad I'm eventually getting a pair of CA-14s and a 9100 preamp (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152785.0) I couldn't be happier - specially since this is the very start of my own rig, what a better way to start it than with some excellent Church Audio stuff? Thank you for all those who've helped in this thread.

Best of luck bro and happy taping!