Topic: Which high-end cardioids?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The microphone housing can perhaps have some very, very (very) slight effect leading to differences, but the housing is designed to be transparent to the sound getting to the capsule.  After all, you wouldn't want the housing having an effect on the incoming sound from different angles such that different positions in an orchestra you're recording have some kind of different timbre or mic sensitivity -- that's no way to capture a soundstage.

It depends on the axis. Published Schoeps mic measurements only test the vertical confg. I've never seen a polar response graph for the V capsules when positioned horizontally.

When you run the V's horizontally at 90, or especially 110 degrees, some aspects of the immediate soundstage in the horizontal plane lose line of sight to the diaphragm.  That "shadowing" does not happen in the vertical orientation.  That lead me to develop the vertical mounting bar.  Zman has the first one used in the field.

It is also possible that the additional length of the V series housings is to give the capsule more room on the long axis of the housing.  It'd be interesting to see the polar plot.

[aaronji]

It's also worth considering trying to get some open permissions.  With the amount of cash you've already spent, the extra money for stand/bar/clips will be a drop in the bucket.  HMH is probably difficult, but some of the other venues might be fairly easy.  Melkweg, for example, allows open taping at the Jam in the Dam, so they are aware of taping and at least somewhat open to it.  I would guess that if you had the artist's approval, they would let you run a stand there...

I probably should start moving in that direction for some of the recordings, I make, yes.

You definitely should!  Please keep me posted if you do.  Opening up the Netherlands, slowly but surely...

[ianmacd]

Well, it's been a little over two months since I posted my original request for comments at the start of my pre-purchase research, but I'm happy to say that I finally made my first recording with the new rig last night: Jack White at the Heineken Music Hall in Amsterdam.

The combination of PMD661 and dual CCM 41Vs certainly isn't the stealthiest for my kind of work, but it's doable if one is willing to accept the increased risk of having one's collar felt. I'm brazen and foolhardy in roughly equal measure, so I'm up for the challenge. 

With some tweaking of my modus operandi and the familiarity that comes with prolonged use of any equipment, I should be able to significantly reduce my set-up time, as well as the amount of twitching and tugging needed out on the floor to relieve cable tension and whatnot during the gig. The 4060s/R-09HR combo is a doddle by comparison, though.

Anyway, yesterday's pull justifies all of the time-consuming product research and the considerable financial outlay. Even my wife agrees that the CCM 41V pull sounds better than the DPA 4060 pull I simultaneously made from the exact same location. My relief and my wife's relief are pretty strongly correlated, if you know what I mean, so I'm feeling very happy that it has worked out so well. I never doubted the quality of the equipment, but I did need to convince myself with an actual pull that I could run something like the CCM 41Vs in stealth mode and still achieve good results.

I'd once again like to thank everybody who contributed to the discussion. I truly couldn't have got to this point without you. And once again, a special thank you to Acidjack, who proverbially went above and beyond in his support of my cause.

[Sebastian]

Congratulations! I'm a few songs into this, but I can already tell this is an exceptionally good aud pull, especially considering it was recorded in 007 mode. However, the stereo image is a bit weak (not surprising for a stack tape).

And this whole "look like a suicide bomber" thing seems to have worked. It sounds like you scared off the rest of the audience

[acidjack]

Well, it's been a little over two months since I posted my original request for comments at the start of my pre-purchase research, but I'm happy to say that I finally made my first recording with the new rig last night: Jack White at the Heineken Music Hall in Amsterdam.

The combination of PMD661 and dual CCM 41Vs certainly isn't the stealthiest for my kind of work, but it's doable if one is willing to accept the increased risk of having one's collar felt. I'm brazen and foolhardy in roughly equal measure, so I'm up for the challenge. 

With some tweaking of my modus operandi and the familiarity that comes with prolonged use of any equipment, I should be able to significantly reduce my set-up time, as well as the amount of twitching and tugging needed out on the floor to relieve cable tension and whatnot during the gig. The 4060s/R-09HR combo is a doddle by comparison, though.

Anyway, yesterday's pull justifies all of the time-consuming product research and the considerable financial outlay. Even my wife agrees that the CCM 41V pull sounds better than the DPA 4060 pull I simultaneously made from the exact same location. My relief and my wife's relief are pretty strongly correlated, if you know what I mean, so I'm feeling very happy that it has worked out so well. I never doubted the quality of the equipment, but I did need to convince myself with an actual pull that I could run something like the CCM 41Vs in stealth mode and still achieve good results.

I'd once again like to thank everybody who contributed to the discussion. I truly couldn't have got to this point without you. And once again, a special thank you to Acidjack, who proverbially went above and beyond in his support of my cause.

Can't wait to go and grab your pull when I get home!  And, er, glad the advice from folks here seemed to pay off, too!  I'd have hated for you to buy $4500 mics and NOT think they were awesome

[ianmacd]

However, the stereo image is a bit weak (not surprising for a stack tape).

You've got me there. I'm an incorrigible stack taper, so you'll need a strong imagination to hear stereo in most of my recordings. 

And this whole "look like a suicide bomber" thing seems to have worked. It sounds like you scared off the rest of the audience

The audience was surprisingly quiet, given the nature of the show. Being close to the front and using supercardioids did the rest.

I'm now going to master the DPA 4060 pull that I made for insurance and comparison purposes. It will be interesting to hear how loud the audience is on that one.

[Sebastian]

What mic config did you run? A/B?

[ianmacd]

What mic config did you run? A/B?

I tried to approximate DINa. I'm still waiting for a proper mount bar to arrive from the US.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Very cool, Ian, and thanks for the recording!  Can't wait to download and listen to your pull.

Edit to add: The fact that you stealthed with TWO rigs, one on its maiden voyage, is a pretty ballsy move.  Cheers to you!

[ianmacd]

Can't wait to download and listen to your pull.

Edit to add: The fact that you stealthed with TWO rigs, one on its maiden voyage, is a pretty ballsy move.  Cheers to you!

My second source of this gig from the DPA 4060s is now up and running for anyone who's interested in a doing comparison. You should be aware, however, that I did need to apply slight EQ to this second source to bring out the best in it. The EQ is very slight, but colours the comparison somewhat. Even so, it doesn't affect the difference in audience noise between the supercardioid pull and the omni pull, which is one of the more interesting areas to compare. The difference is very evident.

Anyway, it's out there if you want it.

The torrent page includes a poll where you can indicate which pull you prefer, if any.

[fandelive]

I just listened to the samples and the Schoeps source has a soundboard feel to it. It sounds very clear but is missing some room reverb'.
To my ears, I wounldn't say the DPA source sounds better, but it certainly "feels" better. But that's just me.

Maybe the next step is the post-production matrixing

Another interesting experience you could made is recording from two different spots :
- stack taping using omnis
- sweet spot 'triangle' using cards

Anyway, you have two killer sources here and most live tapers would be happy if they could end-up with results sounding like only one of them.

[robeti]

I just listened to the samples and the Schoeps source has a soundboard feel to it. It sounds very clear but is missing some room reverb'.
To my ears, I wounldn't say the DPA source sounds better, but it certainly "feels" better. But that's just me.
Anyway, you have two killer sources here and most live tapers would be happy if they could end-up with results sounding like only one of them.

I agree.

The Schoeps source sounds amazing, but it indeed has a soundboard feel to it.

[stepeanut]

Just got back from meeting Ian for the first time.  Lovely bloke.  Saw the famous CCM 41Vs, too; very tasty.  Here's hoping the weather holds out for him in Manchester this weekend.  It's been highly changeable already today.

[ianmacd]

Another interesting experience you could made is recording from two different spots :
- stack taping using omnis
- sweet spot 'triangle' using cards

Despite some middle age spread, I don't think even I can manage to stand in those two places at the same time. 

[ianmacd]

Just got back from meeting Ian for the first time.  Lovely bloke.  Saw the famous CCM 41Vs, too; very tasty.  Here's hoping the weather holds out for him in Manchester this weekend.  It's been highly changeable already today.

Well, thank you kindly, Stephen. It was great to meet you, too.

The cardioids were a lost cause in Heaton Park, due to a lethal combination of rowdiness, flying beer, daylight and rain.

The only safe and sane place to record from was the back of the pit, where the sound was also great, as it happens. That would have solved the flying beer problem, but the cables would have been a dead give-away in the daylight and it was impossible to remain even remotely still, due to the people pushing through the crowd all the time. Then there was the rain that came down on Saturday and looked as if it might come down at any moment on Friday, too.

In the end, I just couldn't risk such expensive equipment in a hostile environment where there was a real chance of damage.

Still, I got pulls of the Stone Roses on all three nights with the DPAs, the Sunday of which is actually really quite good. The other two are more in the category of enjoyable mementos for those who were there. I recorded some of the supports, too, but have yet to master those. The Roses sets are already up on DIME, though.