Topic: Need advice on upgrading from Core Sound Stealth Cardioids

[smat]

I have been mostly happy with my CSC's.  A little tinny at the top end and not enough bass, but all things considered I have made some amazing tapes in my 10 yrs running em.
I'm looking for a stealth mic that is similar but with more bass and less sharp top end.  Most mics I hear seem to sound a little more bassy than I like.
My first inclination was to try and boost the presence somehow, but couldnt figure out how to do that, so I'm looking at trying another mic.
Most of the shows I tape are small to medium venue psychedelic/prog, jazz/fusion, jamband stuff.....some mellower acoustic-y type shows as well.
Should I stick with cards or go omni?
My budget is around $200.

[Hypnocracy]

It would be nice to know the rest of your rig...but...the direction I would head...

Look for some AT853's on eBay or the Yard...standard cap will be the Card...you'll most likely have to get them re-terminated...But if you are patient on eBay I've bought 3 and never paid more than $60 for one...even got lucky and paid $40 once

Save up some more cash...or sell the CSC's and get a set of SubCard's or Omni caps for them...

Once you have moved on to better equipment...since you re-terminated them and have a full rig now that accepts XLR's they will become your Rain microphones...or onstage microphones for the SNB matrix or Mix with the Stereo Audience microphones...here is a sample of just Stage Lip 853 Omni's

http://archive.org/download/bs2011-11-10.FLAC16/Bs111110_casbah_02_dubSynth-inTheMiddle.mp3

At least that is how it worked out for me moving up from my old NAK CM100's...enjoy

[smat]

My rig is CSC's>CA Ugly>Edirol R09HR.

[WiFiJeff]

DPA 4081 > MMA6000

Jeff

[Hypnocracy]

The CA Ugly will drive the AT's fine...I use a CA 9100 and have kept the termination to Mini XLR's on both for three wire and compatibility with the AT8533x power unit...I'm not sure how the Ugly is wired and how it affects the ability to use the Stock AT XLR in line power unit down the road...

here is one...a bit more than I paid...

http://www.musicgoround.com/detail.aspx?id=1233627

[acidjack]

Assuming you want a stealth rig, I agree with the suggestion of AT853s.  Versatile system and good quality. Just be sure they have the "4.7k" mod or "low sensitivity" mod or the louder shows will be distorted.

There's also the Church Audio CA-14.  I have to assume you're already aware of those.  You can get cardiods + omnis for less than $200.

I'm glad you like the CSCs, but I ran them myself back in the 90s and I have to say, you'll be blown away by how much better small cardiod mics can sound now.

The AT831s would also be an option.  They don't have a ton of low end but have a much cleaner and less gritty/peaked top end than the CSCs.

[Gutbucket]

The CA Ugly will drive the AT's fine.

Your CA-UGLY will also work well with the Chuch or the DPA mics. It's simply a matter of correct mic re-termination or using adapters to fit the UGLY's 3.5mm stereo jacks.

In an overly simplistic generalization- to my ear, the CA-14 will provide more bass than what you are getting now, the DPAs Jeff suggested are more costly but have a clarity unmatched by the others (but may lack bass).

[stepeanut]

CA-11 w/card and omni caps.  Hugely underrated when compared with the CA-14.  More versatile for stealthing, too, with their removable windscreens.

[smat]

CA-11 w/card and omni caps.  Hugely underrated when compared with the CA-14.  More versatile for stealthing, too, with their removable windscreens.

Not sure what 'w/card and omni caps' means.  I thought they were either/or?

[stepeanut]

CA-11 w/card and omni caps.  Hugely underrated when compared with the CA-14.  More versatile for stealthing, too, with their removable windscreens.

Not sure what 'w/card and omni caps' means.  I thought they were either/or?

If you order the CA-11 cards, you can order a set of interchangeable omni caps for an extra $50.  Two sets of mics in one.  See the Church 2012 price list in the Retail section.

[smat]

More general question:
Cards or Hyper Cards?  Difference?

[Hypnocracy]

My AT853 Hypers sound fine...that said...the Omni's sound so good they practically never come off my set of bodies...unless I'm running a pattern to stay under the umbrella

IIRC microphones with this small of a capsule...Hyper or Shotgun patterns are near impossible to create...or not worth the effort...

[acidjack]

More general question:
Cards or Hyper Cards?  Difference?

Agree w/ Hypnocracy. Hypers are fine on HQ, larger mics, and the greater side rejection is beneficial when recording boomy rooms.  I owned AT 853 hypers and I didn't find myself reaching for them too much.  The cards, subcards and omnis all are much, much, much better IMHO

[smat]

I'm kinda thinkin SP-CMC-8 cards (looks like I can have omni caps too for $119 more, but that brings the price up considerably) or CA-11 and get card and omni caps.
The SP website kills me with all their options!  Is there a consensus on which  SP stealth mics to go with?  I'm thinkin cards is where I probably wanna stay but I cant ignore the fact that a lot of people seem to really like omnis.

[Hypnocracy]

As much as I love my Omni caps for the AT853's...there are as many folks whom like the Sub Cards...look in the Retail section for New Old Stock Sub Cards before you pay $119 for a set of Omni's...I think you will save close to  $50

LINK

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=146630.0

[acidjack]

I'm kinda thinkin SP-CMC-8 cards (looks like I can have omni caps too for $119 more, but that brings the price up considerably) or CA-11 and get card and omni caps.
The SP website kills me with all their options!  Is there a consensus on which  SP stealth mics to go with?  I'm thinkin cards is where I probably wanna stay but I cant ignore the fact that a lot of people seem to really like omnis.

If you aren't super into bass, the SP-CMC-8s are your friend.  Most find the cards a little "thin" but again, they are light years better than your CSCs.  I like the sound of them, personally, and the omnis are also stellar. 

[stepeanut]

Is there a consensus on which  SP stealth mics to go with?

If you're looking for an all-in-one solution, the CA-11 w/card and omni caps is a great choice.  I own a set, and have been very happy with the results.

That said, since buying the SP-CMC-25, that has been my go-to mic for pretty much everything.  They are super-cardioid, but as long as you can keep reasonably still during recording, you won't experience phasing issues.  Very small, easy to stealth with.  My tastes are fairly eclectic; I've recorded everything from folk to noise-rock to ambient with the 25s, and they haven't let me down yet.  Check my Dime profile, if you're curious to hear how they perform.

[Scooter123]

"Assuming you want a stealth rig, I agree with the suggestion of AT853s."  I owned a pair and they are a low to medium end solution for mikes.  A nice intermediate step. 

If you really like this hobby, I would put a few bucks a week into a coffee can, and make the jump from low end to lower of the high end mikes like Sennheiser, AKG or Neuman.  I think mikes are the biggest improvement you will make on your rig. 

[adrianf74]

"Assuming you want a stealth rig, I agree with the suggestion of AT853s."  I owned a pair and they are a low to medium end solution for mikes.  A nice intermediate step. 

If you really like this hobby, I would put a few bucks a week into a coffee can, and make the jump from low end to lower of the high end mikes like Sennheiser, AKG or Neuman.  I think mikes are the biggest improvement you will make on your rig.

The 853's are what I would do if you needed to make the move now.  Having owned CMC-8's (AT-933/c's) as well as some CA-14's (cards), the 853's are similar to the latter IMHO.   Ultimately, however, I think Scooter123 hit the nail on the head here.   I'd do the same.  Making a jump from $200 to $200 or $400 mics makes LITTLE sense.   I've asked the same question before and decided I'd hold out and use my CA-14 cards when I have to.  I have DPA 4061's which are my go-to mic and I pretty much use these religiously, however, sometimes I'm in places such as amphitheaters and arenas where I'm stuck and have to use cards.   

I'm really interested in the AKG Active project that is getting close to being a reality and this will open the doors for some great options in the sub $1000 price point.   This might be something worth looking into once it shows up.

[fmaderjr]

The 853's are what I would do if you needed to make the move now.  Having owned CMC-8's (AT-933/c's) as well as some CA-14's (cards), the 853's are similar to the latter IMHO.   Ultimately, however, I think Scooter123 hit the nail on the head here.   I'd do the same.  Making a jump from $200 to $200 or $400 mics makes LITTLE sense.   I've asked the same question before and decided I'd hold out and use my CA-14 cards when I have to.  I have DPA 4061's which are my go-to mic and I pretty much use these religiously, however, sometimes I'm in places such as amphitheaters and arenas where I'm stuck and have to use cards.   

Agreed, except that the CoreSound mics in question don't perform anywhere near as well as today's $200 mics like the 853's (or the cheaper CA-14's).

So IMO if smat doesn't want to wait to save up for some lower end high end mics, I think he will notice a huge step up in sound quality by investing in 853's or CA-14's now. He can always sell them for 75% or so of what he pays for them if and when he decides to step up further. If he wants cards I would not go with the smaller AT-933's. They cost more than the 853's and IMO don't sound as good. The 853's and CA-14's are still small enough that many of us have no problems stealthing with them. I haven't used my 853 omni caps since I have DPA 4060's, but I love the subcards in the right circumstances and have made recordings with the hypers that I was happy with when I was in the balcony far from the stage.

[smat]

This is complicated cause everyone likes something different and sounding "good" is so objective :/
I really dont want to have to buy individual mics and craft them into pair.  Looks like the situation with a lot of the AT's mentioned here. 
Also I really want to stay small as I end up having to stealth more and more.
I kinda like the CMC-8's and am kinda between those and the CA-11's.
I want either a mic that's not real boomy as *most seem to be to MY ears....or a bass roll off option.
Is there a DPA stealth mic in the 2-300 price range?

[adrianf74]

This is complicated cause everyone likes something different and sounding "good" is so objective :/
I really dont want to have to buy individual mics and craft them into pair.  Looks like the situation with a lot of the AT's mentioned here. 
Also I really want to stay small as I end up having to stealth more and more.
I kinda like the CMC-8's and am kinda between those and the CA-11's.
I want either a mic that's not real boomy as *most seem to be to MY ears....or a bass roll off option.
Is there a DPA stealth mic in the 2-300 price range?

The CMC-8's are WAY TOO thin sounding to my ears.   You'll be happier with either the AT-853's or the CA-14's.   I would take a CA-14 over a CA-11 any day of the week.    I've ste*lthed with CA-14's and never had an issue EVER.  AT pairs show up in the yard from time to time as do CA-14 cards.   "Boominess" is also subjective and most low-cost cards are anything but boomy.  I find the CA-14's have a better lower end than the CMC-8's which is why I made that move about two summers back.  You don't want to use bass roll-off with cards.   Bass roll-off is for omnis only (and even then, I'd sooner roll the bass off in post then end up with a recording that is thin-sounding).  Chris Church *NEVER* suggests to enable roll-off with the cards.

There are no stealth DPA cards in that price-range.   4021's will run you about $2k used and there's the option of the 4081's at $1k but I don't know enough about them to be able to comment.   Again, there's little between the $200 class and $1-to-1.5k class at this time.

[markrsmith]

ca-14>ca-9100 is a great combination, add a SP-GNA-2 for a mount and you will be happy for a long time.

[blg]

I have the CA-14 cards and CA-Ugly pre-amp, have been extremely happy with the setup and have had no problems stealthing.  In the past I've owned both the SP-CMC-8s and DPA 4061s.  I think the CA-14s sound much better than the soundpros did and while the DPAs are better mics, I definitely don't miss all of the surrounding chatter/noise they picked up nor do I miss having to EQ the excess bass.  For the low price point (paid $225 new for the mics and Ugly), I don't think you can beat the quality.

If you do go with the CA mics, just be prepared to wait a while if you order them new.  When I bought mine last year I was told the build time would be 5 weeks and it took almost twice that long.  I also wouldn't call customer service a strong point, but in the end it's easy to overlook due to the quality of the product.  Just my .02.

[smat]

OK...I think I'm gonna go for the CA-14 cards! 

[stymie]

If they still make them buy sonic studio's dsm-6s. They will run about $800 but i've recorded 100's of steath shows and these mics rock!!

[adrianf74]

If they still make them buy sonic studio's dsm-6s. They will run about $800 but i've recorded 100's of steath shows and these mics rock!!

DSM-6s are *not* cardioid mics so I don't think they qualify for consideration.  The 4061's are also pretty decent if we're talking omnis but as blg pointed out, you get a lot of chatter picked up (with the DSM-6s as well) because people can't go somewhere now without STFU.

[smat]

If they still make them buy sonic studio's dsm-6s. They will run about $800 but i've recorded 100's of steath shows and these mics rock!!

DSM-6s are *not* cardioid mics so I don't think they qualify for consideration.  The 4061's are also pretty decent if we're talking omnis but as blg pointed out, you get a lot of chatter picked up (with the DSM-6s as well) because people can't go somewhere now without STFU.

Those DSM's are RETARDED good!  I WISH I swung one that big!;)