Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Mid-Side recording levels  (Read 8019 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline noahbickart

  • phishrabbi
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 12:18:44 PM »
Folks might want to check out this MS Thesis on M/S sound:

http://www.midside.com/pdf/nyu/masters_thesis.pdf
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline fguidry

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 154
  • Gender: Male
    • Kaleponi - Slack Key in California
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 06:42:12 PM »
...
I don't have a "DAW"--I have a homebrew PC that's showing its age, plus conventional audio editing software (Sound Forge, Adobe Audition). Converting from M/S to L/R or the reverse is relatively time-consuming. So the most efficient approach by far is to start directly from M and S signals rather than to derive them from already matrixed L/R tracks.[/li][/list]
...

As an aside and as a former Audition user, I must mention the joys of replacing AA with REAPER. One of the pleasures is real time processing of effects, such that the conversion from MS to XY and back is without time penalty. The program is also very light on resource demands, so it's ideal for "classic" computer hardware. 

Changing software/workflow is rarely something we do until forced, it just isn't one of life's pleasures for most of us. But I'm grateful that Adobe put me through some severe licensing annoyances, because that experience forced me over the learning hump with REAPER.

Fran

Offline kbergend

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 03:42:19 PM »
For the best signal-to-noise ratio, record both channels as you normally would with L/R stereo, i.e. let the peak levels approach, but not quite reach, full scale (0 dB).

This is what I've always done to optimize signal strength for the side channel in post, but about the only time I use M/S is for recording unamplified ensembles at very close range cuz you can get a very realistic image and of course adjust the stereo width in post -- for louder shows from a distance I always use cards or hypers in a non-coincident configuration.  Usually with M/S I'm recording into an AC-powered RME Fireface UFX and simultaneously routing gain-adjusted and decoded signals to phones + a MacBook for near-real-time stereo monitoring and webcasting (sometimes I'm also recording a pair of spot cards, using attenuated signals for the live mix).  As DSatz pointed out, even a gain-adjusted headphone image can't provide an accurate reflection of what a decoded mix sounds like with any speaker configuration, but it's much better than nothing and you need to decode on the fly anyway if you're sending out a live stereo signal.  I've never had any problems adjusting full-gain side signals for a good stereo image in post using Audition, just need to bus the two decoded side tracks so the volume is reduced for both simultaneously while mixing.

And I will add my own +T for the unparalleled value of DSatz's advice.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 07:35:51 AM by kbergend »
Keith from NY

Gefell M200/210, AKG 481/2/3, Milab DC-196 and VM-44 Link
Darktrain cables
Grace Lunatec V3, RME Fireface UFX
Tascam DR-680, Oade Concert R-44, Oade Concert PMD661, JoeCo BlackBox

Offline Tom McCreadie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 07:14:26 AM »
This is what I've always done to optimize signal strength for the mid channel in post

I've never had any problems adjusting full-gain mid signals for a good stereo image in post using Audition, just need to bus the two decoded mid tracks so the volume is reduced for both simultaneously while mixing.

I agree with your workflow - and am also highly appreciative of the unstinting, excellent input of DSatz - but don't quite fathom this focus on optimizing the _mid_ channel signal strength. Surely the OP's question was essentially about wheher or not to optimize the _S_ signal level, which, at unattended 1:1 gain settings, would typically be at a significantly lower level than that of the mid?  To wring out the max s/n benefit, both channels should of course be maximized close to 0dBfs while recording...but I believe optimizing the weaker S would give a slightly bigger s/n payback.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15745
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 01:20:04 PM »
- Tom McC., I agree with you completely. In conventional M/S recording, the reverberation balance and the stereo image width are determined in tandem by the M-to-S ratio going into the matrix--there's only one "knob" (whether it's in hardware or software) to turn for both at once. As a result, you don't have the freedom to set each parameter to your liking--you always have to pick a compromise. And the two parameters work in opposite directions, narrowing your range of usable settings to the point where usually, there's hardly any choice, as I mentioned a few messages earlier. For example you can widen the stereo image in playback by increasing the amount of "S" that you're using--but that also decreases the proportion of direct sound in the result, just when you'd probably want to increase it, and vice versa.

The "Double M/S" approach, a three-mike system which was discussed in several threads on this forum a few years back, offers a way out of that bind, as does the four-capsule Ambisonic system. Both are also useful ways of making surround recordings. But they're still coincident miking techniques, and whenever I have a choice I usually prefer stereo miking with some space between the capsules; the localization may not be as precise but the listening experience seems more pleasurable to most people, myself included.

May I interject tangentially?

DSatz has posted here and elsewhere about the relationship between stereo image width and reverberation balance.  These are the basic ‘building blocks’ of sound recording in my way of thinking, just one step above the even more basic foundational concepts of frequency balance and level dynamics. When he mentions the challenge of optimizing that balance in location recordings made in unfamiliar surroundings without the ability to monitor very well or at all while making the recording, he sums up what I think makes the type of recording we focus on around here unique compared to other forms of audio recording.

I think one of the best uses of the ability to record more than two channels (other than doing microphone or mic configuration comparisons) is the ability to control stereo image and reverberation balance separately, even if only in a somewhat limited way. 

DSatz mentions “Double Mid-Side” and ambisonic techniques as three and four channel recording techniques that offer some welcome ability to “unlink” the typically set relationship between stereo image and reverberation balance and make adjustments to one without compromising the other.  I sometimes use ambisonic techniques and the control it offers is heady.  But like DSatz, I usually prefer non-coincident mic techniques, simply because I prefer the listening experience I get with some space between the microphones, and getting to the point of my post, I find some of the freedom to adjust things after the recording has been made can be done with non-coincident microphone techniques if one goes a step back and re-thinks some of the basics underlying the configurations.

To get a good understanding of how things work and what is really important in audio recording (or at least what is most important to me), I trend to break things down to basic root concepts and then build upon that instead of simply applying the standard accepted techniques to find out what works best.  It helps to be familiar with standard microphone configurations which are more or less “known to usually work”, yet I find it more helpful to try and understand why those techniques work and why the don’t work in various situations, and apply that more basic understanding to the practical problem of how to approach things in ways which increase the potential of getting something that will result in a good recording.

I’ve found understanding those general underlying concepts is key, especially with the type of recording done around here, where there is often no opportunity to monitor while setting up or making the recording, perhaps at best some minimal monitoring via headphones.  For amateur live music recording, mic placement and configuration tend to be determined by educated best guess, or “listen and put the mics where is sounds good and relatively balanced”, if we are given have the freedom to do that.  Having the ability to adjust the direct/reverberant balance after the recording has been made in even a limited way, without compromising the width/imaging aspects, is very helpful.  When I consider which microphone configuration to use for various recording situations, some of the basic aspects I think about are ways to control stereo image width and reverberant balance separately.  To my thinking, the big advantage of three and four channel techniques is the ability to dedicate the additional channels to direct/reverberant information, and not just catching a slightly different flavor of left/right information.  After all, getting an improved direct/reverberant balance is the primary benefit of making a SBD/AUD matrix.  The same underlying concept applies here.

As an example, one specific four-channel recorder technique which has been working well for me has been as follows:  Spaced omnis into the first two channels, a directional (cardioid, supercardioid, hypercardioid) mic into the 3rd channel, pointing directly forward to primarily focus on direct sound, and in the 4th channel a cardioid facing rearwards with it’s 180-degree null centered on the direct source.  The rearward facing microphone provides control over room reverb and crowd reaction and is chosen and placed specifically to ‘exclude’ as much direct sound as possible, focusing on the reverberant sound of the room and the ambience in it.  If I have more than four recording channels, a pair of rear-facing mics works even better (arranged so their least sensitive regions or ‘nulls’ similarly reduce their direct sound pickup), but one gets the job done.  A pair also makes for easy, discrete 5 channel surround, which I really dig for “you are there realism”, even though I know most here are not interested in making surround recordings.  My reason for mentioning all this here is not to be a cheerleader for surround recording, but to explain how certain techniques give me more control over stereo image verses reverberance ballance in two channel stereo mixes, and how that control helps to make up somewhat for the limited ability to optimize recording setups and monitor them “in the field”.

Hope that helps.


musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DigiGal

  • AES Associate Member
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Gender: Female
  • Stay healthy and safe!
    • DigiGal Internet Archive Recordings
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 06:08:28 PM »
Just noting that there have been some AES Papers published about mid-side recording that are beneficial reading for working with mid-side.
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

Offline Rob D.

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3724
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 07:47:49 PM »
At the great risk of differing with DSatz, whose advice should almost always be followed, I have a different method:
I decode to L/R *on the fly* at 50% Mid / 50% Side. I then try to get these L/R levels to peak at about --6db to -3db, running 24bit. I do this for for 2 reasons:
1. I can listen to the show on the way home on headphones and in the car.
2. Post-Processing takes less time, because the final mx isn't ever very far from 50/50 anyway. There is no difference mathematically in adjusting the M/S ration "inline." (p.s. you can do this for non M/S mastered shows as well)
Running M/S, and trying *both* M and S to peak at -6db to -3db equally might ultimately improve the S/N ratio significantly, which is likely why DSatz likely recommends this. Yet this is almost never a real problem at loud rock shows.
Basically, I find it harder and more time consuming to dial in the right mix in post when you begin with WAY too much side info. So I do it on the fly.

If you have an SD-7xx you can link the two channels making the L/R on the fly pretty easy:

(from the SD744t manual):
Input Linking (Stereo or MS Decoding)
Analog inputs 1 and 2 can be linked as a stereo pair. When linked, the channel 1 front panel potentiometer controls the signal level of both inputs, and the channel 2 pot controls the left-to-right balance of the pair. When the inputs are linked, their peak limiters are linked, as well. When set to link as an MS pair, the inputs are decoded as left/right stereo, where the gain and balance for the pair work the same as stereo linking above. Input 1 is for Mid signal, input 2 for Side signal. When the inputs are linked, phantom power and the high pass filters also act as linked pairs. Engaging and disengaging phantom power or the high pass filters on input one will force the same function upon input two. Engaging or disengaging phantom power or the high pass fi lter on input two causes no effect on input one. If MS stereo linking is selected for inputs, program sent to tracks and headphones will be L/R stereo program. To record discrete M and S signals, do not link for MS, but monitor the MS signal in headphones.
Things to consider when Linking Input 1,2 as MS:
• Digital Inputs cannot be linked as an MS pair.
• If linking Line Inputs as an MS pair, the Setup Menu option LINE INPUT 1,2: GAIN CTRL
must be set to Use Front Panel Knobs.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15745
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 10:50:22 PM »
I just re-read what I typed earlier and realized I burst in here and said the same thing about 4 times over while veering off onto a multi-channel tangent, probably losing everyone along the way ::)

What I'm trying to say is that I've found it valuable to think primarily in terms of front/back and direct/reverberant, secondarily in terms of wide/narrow and solid/sparce, with left/right a distant third. And that applies to 2 channel stereo as much as surround.  I think we get hung up on left/right because that is where the speakers are, and that is what the channels are labeled, not because that particular dichotomy is anywhere near the most important thing in stereo recordings of live music performances. 

To me, Mid/Side is one avenue to thinking in that way.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kbergend

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • Gender: Male
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2013, 09:45:11 AM »
This is what I've always done to optimize signal strength for the mid channel in post

I've never had any problems adjusting full-gain mid signals for a good stereo image in post using Audition, just need to bus the two decoded mid tracks so the volume is reduced for both simultaneously while mixing.

I agree with your workflow - and am also highly appreciative of the unstinting, excellent input of DSatz - but don't quite fathom this focus on optimizing the _mid_ channel signal strength. Surely the OP's question was essentially about wheher or not to optimize the _S_ signal level, which, at unattended 1:1 gain settings, would typically be at a significantly lower level than that of the mid?  To wring out the max s/n benefit, both channels should of course be maximized close to 0dBfs while recording...but I believe optimizing the weaker S would give a slightly bigger s/n payback.

My apologies for the confusion, I actually meant to refer to the side channel.  I edited my post to reflect what I was actually talking about.  ::)
Keith from NY

Gefell M200/210, AKG 481/2/3, Milab DC-196 and VM-44 Link
Darktrain cables
Grace Lunatec V3, RME Fireface UFX
Tascam DR-680, Oade Concert R-44, Oade Concert PMD661, JoeCo BlackBox

Offline noahbickart

  • phishrabbi
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: Mid-Side recording levels
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2013, 11:03:03 AM »
This is a great thread, I think it should ends residing in the knowledge base
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.06 seconds with 35 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF