Topic: Config for SBD/AUD matrix?

[Gutbucket]

  On the image width aspects alone I agree, althought I'd counter that mixing in the SBD mostly takes care of the middle and allows one to err to the wider side of things with the on-stage pair to improve other 'non-imaging' aspects. 

What's a good configuration for the on stage mics? Can cards be used there or are omnis the better option?

It's a question of what you're recording and how its setup. For 2ch recording on stage, I've used cards and subcards before. You use a tighter stereo pattern since you're not getting similar information on both sides of the image. If I normally liked 20cm/90* then for onstage (if I could fit everything close to 160* for a stereo image) I'd condense that to 14cm/60* and still get a major stereo angle. Omnis don't matter nearly as much as the only directional stuff is >4khz and even that's sort of omni at the end of the day. The downside to omnis are that they don't have any rejection of those screaming fans in the front row.

This is one of those instances where if you want to get better at stereo onstage recording, I'd recommend learning the whole SRA calculation bit. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll dig it up later.

Do you points caps level or up?

At whatever I'm recording (not intending to be snarky). If that's above me, then up, if it's off to one side, then I point it there.

Pointing the omnis at what you want is usually the best answer.  The high-frequency EQ fine-tuning aspect I mentioned is more of a subtle nuance thing, quite microphone and situation dependant.  More importantly (and were Page and I begin to diverge) on-stage spaced omnis spaced at least 3-4' wide (and/or using more than two of them) leverage both proximity signal-level effects and time-of arrival effects.  That can be useful in providing a nice balanced pickup of all on stage sources, even with players moving around, compared to a pair placed in one central spot.  I find they provide far more imaging effects than just >4kHz, but they need to be spaced enough to do that.  They'll still work and sound natural more closely spaced, but then they don't provide much imaging below the treble.

On stage is more of a "capture the sound" question than ambiance since there is no intended ambiance on stage. All of the sound that is occurring there is occurring for a reason (monitors, amps, instruments, etc). Any ambiance or sound image is largely unintentional except in a few genres.

Here's were we diverge  a bit more strongly.  What I get from on-stage which I can't get elsewhere is primarily excellent and detailed imaging and an on-stage ambient feel (talking about an on-stage stereo pair here, or multiple spaced omnis rather than close-placed or spot mics which only provide direct, SBD-like sound).   Secondly, on-stage omnis provide both room and audience ambience as well.   Unless I have a dedicated ambient pair facing out into the room or an AUD pair, all the ambient room information on the recording is being provided by those on-stage mics.  Those aspects are completely intentional and one of the things I consider when arranging the on-stage setup.

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all valid points. It's a situational thing. I've heard lots of crap sound on stage that you have to focus on as it (the stage sound) treated like a function, not as a production in it's own right. Now, my small jazz and classical opportunities are much more tuned to stage where you have people who will setup to create a better stage sound. My rock/jam/indie type offerings aren't (especially with those directional guitar amps).

[Gutbucket]

(especially with those directional guitar amps)

Word.  Those things beam nearly as much as a trumpet or 'bone player, but fortunately the amps stay put.  It's like a torrent of sound sticking to the floor, flowing directly across it.  Can be a useful phenomenon when considering the most appropriate on-stage setup.

[Chuck]

A couple of weekends ago I was recording a band on a small stage outside. Once I had my levels set I went up front and took some pictures. I experienced that guitar amp beaming first hand and noted how strong it was if I was perfectly lined up with it.

[ScoobieKW]

A couple of weekends ago I was recording a band on a small stage outside. Once I had my levels set I went up front and took some pictures. I experienced that guitar amp beaming first hand and noted how strong it was if I was perfectly lined up with it.

yup, it's why my buddy builds guitar cabs with the speaker set at a 20 degree angle inside. the beam hits the guitarist not the front row.

[Sloan Simpson]

Thanks for the responses. I think I'm going to try DIN again and maybe narrow the SBD feed a bit if I have the same issue (which I guess is more unsatisfactory imaging than phasiness). It never occurred to me to manipulate the width of the SBD 

[DF81]

...and it does get more complicated when you have a stereo SBD feed and a stereo AUD recording. You have to make sure anything panned right in the SBD feed also is represented on the right side of your audience recording etc... Getting all that lined up can be a pain.

Sloan is using 184's, but for this scenario a mid-side recording may be easier to mix in post production.

[acidjack]

I use good ol' point at stacks mainly, but it's situational. Dumb question/thought, but be sure the sound guy is plugging right into right and left into left. Sometimes what's intuitive to us markings-wise is not to them, or they don't really think about it or care. Most of my places don't pan much, but it's enough sometimes that you'll get that phase-y effect if you don't make sure the channels are right.

[Sloan Simpson]

I use good ol' point at stacks mainly, but it's situational. Dumb question/thought, but be sure the sound guy is plugging right into right and left into left. Sometimes what's intuitive to us markings-wise is not to them, or they don't really think about it or care. Most of my places don't pan much, but it's enough sometimes that you'll get that phase-y effect if you don't make sure the channels are right.

They let me plug my own cables, which I usually leave hanging. They should be right but it would be a good idea if I crawl up there and make sure they still are.

[Gutbucket]

When mixing, it's good to get in the habit of listening to each source individually to confirm left is left and right is right, as well as checking and correcting other basic stuff like channel balance, tonality, noise or other subtle problems that may not be as easily identified once other channels are introduced.  It's easy enough to swap channel assignments at that point.  In the end getting it right in the mix is what matters, rather than my ability to keep all channels correctly assigned when making the raw recording. 

[F.O.Bean]

What's a good configuration for the on stage mics? Can cards be used there or are omnis the better option? Do you points caps level or up?

I have run cards onstage/stage-lip more than any other pattern, but then again I never did run omnis that often. I have run omnis/subcards/cards/hypers all onstage. the most consistent cap IMO is the cards. They are very versatile onstage/stage-lip and sound very natural up there. I have run a stage-lip ck61 pair, DIN, for Lotus way back in the day, and mixed that with a SBD recording from that night in 2006, and IMO, its one of the best Lotus recordings on the LMA! And many would agree in the Lotus world!

Check it!
https://archive.org/details/lotus2006-02-17.matrix

[F.O.Bean]

Another. This is just the ck61>V3>ModSBM1>JB3 stage-lip. Its pretty dope IMO for just a stage-lip Enjoy!

https://archive.org/details/lotus2005-10-15.481

[Cobiwan]

I'm recording a friend's annual party/mini festival on Sat with 5 bands. I'm gonna pull the SBD with the M-10 and run the MK 4s ORTF on stage. I'll post a sample after the weekend.