Topic: Starter help: DAT or MD or HD recorder?

[MSTaper]

That's the problem, Brian, not sure what direction to go in first!  Seems like minidisc is a little less expensive than DAT for sure. I've heard good things about Sharp MD's and have checked online for them. Not having much luck. I certainly don't want anything too complicated, that's for sure. Money is certainly an issue as well! I hate to ask this question since there might be a post that addresses it that I haven't found, but what are the advantages/disadvantages of DAT vs Minidisc vs a Nomad? Thanks for all the help.

[The Kilted Taper]

JB3 (Nomad) all the way. No media to buy (less $$), FAST transfers, DAT and MD are realtime and most, if not all, portable MD's do not have a digital out. To me the JB# is the most newbie friendly and affordable way to go. There are still several from Creative on eBay for $139.99!

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks for the additional comments, everyone - keep 'em coming.  I think the original post is now up to date with the additional comments:

DAT

Pros


• Proven reliable
• Archivable media
• Easily powered via internal batteries
• Reliable coax S/PDIF digital-in capability
• Good/decent analog line-in and ADC (D100/M1/DA-P1)
• Easy to patch with the proper digital cable
• Supports upgrade path from analog-in to digital-in using an outboard ADC
• Long, uninterrupted recording times (commonly used tapes are 2 and 3 hrs in length)
• Good level meters allow easy setting of levels

Cons


• More expensive than other options
• Media costs ($1.50-$5 per 2 hr tape)
• Real-time transfer from DAT to portable / playbable format (i.e. CD) (assuming you don't use your portable deck for playback or buy a secondary deck for playback)
• Computer soundcard or digital-in standlone CD recorder required for transfers (more gear, more $)
• Damn proprietary 7-pin cables are expensive
• Difficult to determine usage hours on portable units resulting in risky used purchases from unknown entities
• Somewhat expensive to repair
• Crappy analog line-in and ADC (D7/D8)
• Slow tape swaps required if media changes necessary (e.g. due to running out of tape)

[/color]

MD

Pros


• Inexpensive relative to DAT
• Small
• Easily powered by AA batteries
• Re-usable / archivable media
• Reasonably reliable for field use
• Newer models support on-the-fly level changes

Cons


• Compression (ATRAC)
• Crappy analog line-in and ADC (relative to DAT)
• Short record times (~74min) before disc-swap required
• No digital output = no digital feeds to patchers
• Home deck required for digital transfers to CD via computer
• Older units do not allow on-the-fly level changes
• Crappy level meter
• Disc skips possible if moved while recording
• No easy upgrade path from analog-in to digital-in

[/color]

Hi-MD

Pros


• More expensive than regular MD and JB3, but not as expensive as DAT
• Small
• Easily powered by AA batteries
• Re-usable / archivable media
• Reasonably reliable for field use
• Decent recording time of 90min uncompressed WAV (16-bit / 44.1kHz)

Cons


• Expensive media
• Poor analog line-in and ADC (relative to DAT)
• Though supports digital optical input, digital-in recordings still require analog transfers
• No digital output = no digital feeds to patchers
• Sketchy level meters
• Disc skips possible if moved while recording
• While a potential upgrade path exists from analog-in to digital-in, the path cannot be realized due to the inability to transfer digitally recordings made via digital-in
• Anecdotal feedback suggests SonicStage software may occasionally irreperably damage audio files

[/color]

HD (Creative Nomad Jukebox 3)^*

Pros


• Inexpensive relative to DAT and Hi-MD
• Decent analog line-in and ADC
• Easy and fast transfer from HD to computer / CD via USB / Firewire
• Proving reliable (though not as long a field history as DAT)
• Easily powered via internal or external batteries
• Reliable optical digital-in capability
• Easy to patch with digital format converter (DFC, e.g. Hosa ODL-276)
• Supports upgrade path from analog-in to digital-in using an outboard ADC
• Long, uninterrupted recording times (3 hrs in a single file)
• Easy and fast transition to a new file if recording time runs out
• Long run-time from internal batteries (two batts @ ~3 hrs each = ~6 hrs)
• No media to buy
Cons


• Proprietary internal batteries (more $)
• Possibly discontinued / limited availability
• No real third-party service options if repairs necessary
• No digital-out = no digital feeds to patchers if running analog-in on the JB3
• Patching from digital sources requires splitter and usually DFC (most digital feeds are coax, JB3 is optical)
• Crap level meters makes setting levels aggressively challenging when running analog-in
• Some feel it's too large for stealthing (bah, I say)
• Some people don't like the software used for transfers (easily remedied with $20 Notmad Explorer)
• Some don't feel the analog line-in and ADC stages are high enough quality (listen and decide for yourself)
  

^*See Nomad JB3 Tapers FAQ and Operating FAQ in the Archival Info forum for more information.
[/list][/color]

[dnsacks]

Russ:

One thing you haven't told us is what you plan to do with the deck.  If you're planning on patching into others' recording setups, I'll buck the trend and opine that a dat is the easiest way to go for somebody getting into recording, as it's merely "plug and play" for a digital patch. 

Let us know what you're thinking of doing with the deck.

Darrin

[pfife]

Only things I have to really add

a con for MD- have to buy/carry media (I think you are looking at about $1-$1.50 a disc... not sure on that though)

for adjusting levels on the fly, it might be nice to note which ones do not need to be paused- I can personally attest that the NetMD N-707 does not need to be paused to adjust the levels on the fly.  However, the levels meters were not in stereo- there was one.  Which channel that measured is anyones guess.

a con for NJB3: some people seem to think that its too large, and thus less stealthy.  I am not one of them, but they are out there.
also a con for NJB3:  The input problem- where the ring around the input can preclude some fatter cords from plugging in all the way.
also a con for NJB3:  Many people think the software sucks.  Only other option is Notmad, which costs $20 (I believe)
also a con for NJb3:  I don't think the a/d's are nearly sufficient- I rarely see a source thats DPA ->MS60xx box-> NJB3;
My speculation is because the a/d's are not that good, or because I am just not looking hard enough...  

hopefully this helps, and is not wildly off-base.

[pfife]

And don't forget about Sony's HiMD...
 

[Roamer]

I will comment on the MD because I own one (although I'm thinking about some upgrade ...).
Levels: On Sharp models  and newer Sony models , you can adjust on the fly.
On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.
The new HiMD models lets you record 1h30 uncompressed stereo at 44 Khz. But the new media is still hard to find (Sony have some trouble there. Around 7$ if you find the new media). It is also possible to transfer from a HiMD to a PC via USB1, but only from an analog source (thanks to Sony protection ...).
And the price range for the new HiMD is roughly in between JB3 and DAT.

Edited for media price.

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks, pfife, good input.  I thought I'd included the media on the MD side, oops.  Regarding MD unit's specific level-setting functionality, I'm not looking to get into the level of detail required to list which MDs support on-the-fly recording levels or not.  As for the JB3 cons, a few comments...

a con for NJB3: some people seem to think that its too large, and thus less stealthy.  I am not one of them, but they are out there.

Yup.  Can't hurt to put in a reference.

also a con for NJB3:  The input problem- where the ring around the input can preclude some fatter cords from plugging in all the way.

This is an easily resolvable known issue, therefore I don't really consider it a con.  I could also list tape mis-loads as a con for DAT, switches on the back that get moved easily and inadvertently, etc.  But those types of things are generally easily prevented and therefore, IMO, a non-issue.

also a con for NJB3:  Many people think the software sucks.  Only other option is Notmad, which costs $20 (I believe)

Good point, forgot about the s/w side - because using Notmad I never have to deal with the crappy stock s/w!

also a con for NJb3:  I don't think the a/d's are nearly sufficient- I rarely see a source thats DPA ->MS60xx box-> NJB3;
My speculation is because the a/d's are not that good, or because I am just not looking hard enough... 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find that sort of source.  I think the perception is that the NJB3 ADC is insufficient.  I think the blind test I posted earlier this year (though obvoiusly not scientific) indicates that most tapers - and some fairly well experienced ones taboot - either preferred the JB3 or couldn't tell the difference.  All that said, it's probably worth mentioning, but I don't want to come out and say outright it's insufficient, because for most people I don't think it is.

I think maybe my "disc skips possible" for MD is off-base - any regular MD users want to correct me?

Roamer - thanks for the HiMD plug, forgot about those!  Will update later...

[Tony B]

*]No real service options if repairs necessary

Really? If my JB3 goes wacko (which it hasn't...I freakin' love the thing), am I SOL? I can't believe that Creative's support is that bad....you have direct experience with this happening?

[Chris K]

being an owner of a minidisc (mzr-70) a dat (d8) and a jb3 i would say i like the njb3 the most if i am running a rig in front of it

but if i were to go and try to patch a show, i would most likely bring the d8 as it is still more universally acceptable in the taping world IMO. a set of AA, a pair of $3 90m tapes and an oade 7pin digi i/o cable will get you through a decent show and provides the archivable media. i wouldnt want to take the chance to bring the jb3 and not have an optical patch available. also, if there is a large chain of patchers the dat will accompany the chain much better than the jb3. if there is no optical line in avaiable then you will have to settle for an analog feed which seems to defeat the purpose of having any digital device. i guess if i got one of those hosa boxes it would help things a bit, but if i am thinking of patching i am bringing the least amount of gear that i will need

the way prices are today you can get both a d7/d8 and a jb3 for about the same price as a new/refurb d8 cost a few years back, and probably the same price as an m1 now. something to think about also.

[Brian Skalinder]

I don't very often see new DAT machines priced competitively with the JB3, or even used ones for that matter.  Well, maybe a D7, but they're pretty darn old at this stage and with no way to identify the actual hours on the unit - risky.

Anyway, a straight D7/D8 may be more universally accepted as a patching setup, but IMO for no other reason that it's what people are accustomed to seeing.  A coax patch is a coax patch is a coax patch.  Patchers use (or should use) splitters, too.  And as you suggest, the Hosa ODL-276 is an easy solution to patching with the JB3.  Splitter + ODL-276 poses no real challenges in a patching scenario (unless you want to string multiple JB3 together, but there's really no need to do so - if there is, simply transfer in literally a few minutes after the show from one JB3 to another, or place a DAT deck between the two JB3s to "refresh" the S/PDIF signal).  In fact, there's even an advantage to the splitter + Hosa scenario:  if your JB3 croaks, you don't screw up the patch of people downstream from you, as would happen if your DAT batteries ran too low or your tape runs out.

[Chris K]

all good points bri

the other thing i wanted to add that i forgot before is the levels on the dats are far superior to the jb3. probably wont matter much if patching either way, but it is a better frame of reference for consistant levels and overages with a dat than with a jb3.

i wonder sometimes if the jb3's over lights actually go off a few db under 0 cause i seem to recall that the jb3 over indicator went off while the d8 is close to 0 but not over the limit

or maybe i'm just a little fuzzy.

in any event, not trying to sway one way or another just trying to give my viewpoint. i like using the jb3 with my whole rig, but if i had to patch i would probably use the d8....thats just me.

as for transferring from one jb3 to another jb3 after a show, although not new to the jb3, i have never done that, and wouldnt know how to go about it...what cable would you use, mini usb to mini usb? 4 pin firewire to 4 pin firewire? when the 2 units hook up what kind of interface shows up? same menu screens but you can see the others albums/tracks etc as well as your own? or am i missing something (door opens for showing me a link to this to fill me in  ), also does it matter if the two dont share the same firmware?

[F.O.Bean]

you would hook up jb3>jb3 via 4-pin>4-pin firewire, then go to the one w/ the 'sets' youd liek to send, and one by one, highlight the file you want to send and tap in the scroll wheel on the file, and scroll to 'send file'

[Nick Graham]

also a con for NJb3:  I don't think the a/d's are nearly sufficient- I rarely see a source thats DPA ->MS60xx box-> NJB3;
My speculation is because the a/d's are not that good, or because I am just not looking hard enough... 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find that sort of source.  I think the perception is that the NJB3 ADC is insufficient.  I think the blind test I posted earlier this year (though obvoiusly not scientific) indicates that most tapers - and some fairly well experienced ones taboot - either preferred the JB3 or couldn't tell the difference.  All that said, it's probably worth mentioning, but I don't want to come out and say outright it's insufficient, because for most people I don't think it is.

This past weekend I ran V2>JB3 and V2>D100 for the same set (out of the RCAs for the DAT and XLR out for the JB3) and definitely did notice a difference. Even though the output of the V2's XLRs are hotter, the recording seems more distant, almost like the band was in a well if that makes any sense.

[tibbsa]

Mini-Disc

• Compression (ATRAC)
• Many units require a paused recording to make level changes
• Short record times (~74min) before disc-swap required

With the new Hi-MD units:
1/3. You can record about 1:30 of uncompressed, 16/44.1 audio on a Hi-MD disc, though they are a bit scarce and expensive now (~$10 CDN for a single disc through SonyStyle.ca).  With Atrac3+ 256kbps compression -- which some will object to, of course, but others can live with -- you can get 7+ hours on a single Hi-MD disc, which is much more than one would need for a single concert. 

2. At least with the MZ-NH900, you must pause hte unit initially to put it in "manual level" mode; however, after that, you can adjust the levels on the fly so long as you don't actually stop recording at any point.  This means that once you have it setup at the beginning of the show, you CAN adjust on-the-fly without pausing.

I don't know if the second point applies to all models, as I just have the NH900 myself.  There is a model out there somewhere with a 3-line backlit remote, which gives you nice, convenient meters, but I'll agree that the built-in LCD meters are really almost useless in a dark room situation... :(

Warning: The high speed USB1 transfers to SonicStage have been known to "trash" the occasional recording beyond repair.  YMMV, but I, for one, would not want to risk a one-time concert recording to this somewhat inferior software. 

[MSTaper]

Thanks a bunch, guys. Got a little technical on me there at the end, but that's cool.

Sounds like all three have their pros and cons. I checked out the Nomad and it looks pretty good for the price. Mini Discs seem to be about the most reasonable price wise. I see the point about a used DAT, like the D-7 here, but a new one is out of the question.

Darrin, I really don't have a clear idea what I would do at this point. I would likely begin my trying to tape some local bands here and if I want to take it further, try and hit some other shows. However, I know one taper at this point and that's it. Don't know if I'd approach strangers at a show and ask to hook up to their equipment. But if that's common, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't need anything elaborate to begin with. But I'd apparently be looking at some type of used DAT or new mini disc or hard disc, a good but reasonably priced mic, mike preamp and mic stand from what I see. Toss in assorted cables and such and it can get pricy. But I'm stating the obvious.

Brian, thanks for posting all the pros/cons of the different recording options. Very helpfu, but at the same time, makes the decision that much harder Thanks for being helpful to a newbie who's trying to learn a lot in a short period of time. rWc

[Brian Skalinder]

On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.

How does MD manage a 16-bit / 44.1 or 48 kHz optical signal?  Presumably it still applies ATRAC, but...how?  Are you sure it can handle that feed?  Or can it only accept an optical feed from another MD using ATRAC?

[Brian Skalinder]

Updated the original post based on your feedback, everyone - did I get it right?  Forget anything?  More to add?

[pfife]

Darrin, I really don't have a clear idea what I would do at this point. I would likely begin my trying to tape some local bands here and if I want to take it further, try and hit some other shows. However, I know one taper at this point and that's it. Don't know if I'd approach strangers at a show and ask to hook up to their equipment. But if that's common, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, its pretty common- the term is called "patching" - a lot of the time, people will have maybe an extra output of some sort from their preamp that you can plug into, or some kind of output from the unit they are using to record from, which can be available to you, taper willing.  I've never had anyone ask for a patch (mainly cause I mostly tape stuff that people hate... and people don't know about taping at all!) - but I would totally let them do it if they had what they needed in order to patch.

The ethic though is for the patcher to bring anything (mainly any kinds of cables) they might need- but then the problem arises that you don't know beforehand what you might need to patch in, so an assortment of cables is going to be necessary to catch all situations you might find.  I'd search the "Ask Tapers" forum, as patching has been discussed here a bit.

I think patching is a good idea if you want to start getting recordings before you purchase all the items in a rig.  That way, you won't be tempted to buy something crappy just to start taping (like I did) - Its an addictive hobby, and you'll prolly upgrade, so why not start out somewhat decent from the beginning?

HTH-
~Andrew

[taperkat]

I was an MD taper for 4 years, and I've got an ancient Sony Deck (MZ-R30) and 2 Sharp MD-MS722's that have seen more play than Schilling.

I recently upgraded to dat and the first show I taped, I said "Why the FUCK did I wait so long?"

the fact you can put 3 hours straight on a dat is still amazing and lovely to me. And very, much needed, especially in a stealthing situation.

MD's with optical outs are theoretically illegal to make anymore, but you can still own one, and usually they're on eBay for 50-75 bucks. They're a Sony Home Unit.

If you're going to go with MD get a sharp - I had another sony, a newer one, and it fell apart after 6 months (then was stolen out of my car, heh.. thanks karma and theft insurance!). My Sharps I've had since June of 2000, bought through minidisco.com, and now one of the shells, a screw fell out so it likes to try to open. They're both getting old, so they've been retired, and it's DAT for me.

I don't like the idea of completely digital without some kind of media. Call it old, or farfetched, or whatever, but at least a DAT won't suffer a hard drive crash and be wiped out..

just keep the magnets away

[musicguru]

Go Hi-MD.  I have yet to have any crashes at all using Sonic Stage.  Not sure what others are doing but it works great for me.  The one downside is you have to download a program found at minidisc.org to be able to do a complete digital transfer to get to a wav file.  It took me several weeks to figure it out but now I use it all the time and my recordings are great>

[Brian Skalinder]

Go Hi-MD.  I have yet to have any crashes at all using Sonic Stage.  Not sure what others are doing but it works great for me.  The one downside is you have to download a program found at minidisc.org to be able to do a complete digital transfer to get to a wav file.  It took me several weeks to figure it out but now I use it all the time and my recordings are great>

Good to hear you haven't encountered issues with SS.  Have you encountered any problems with the Renderer program that extracts WAV from the Sony proprietary file format?  Digi-noise, drop-outs, mis-placed samples, etc.?  Have you, by chance, tested for bit-transparency?  How do you feel the analog front-end and ADC perform relative to DAT or other MDs (or even JB3 if you have experience with one)?  Are the level meter(s) any good?

[som]

I was an MD taper for 4 years, and I've got an ancient Sony Deck (MZ-R30) and 2 Sharp MD-MS722's that have seen more play than Schilling.

I recently upgraded to dat and the first show I taped, I said "Why the FUCK did I wait so long?"

QFT.

I didn't wait four years, but I have several shows I recorded on MD that I wish I could go back in time to record again. It's amazing how a used D7 made my relatively cheap mics sound *way* better. There's a band I record at the Texas Jazz Fest. Two different years: same mics/battery box, same location, same stage/tent, same company running sound, same band. The only difference is Sharp MD vs. Sony D7 DAT. The DAT is far, far superior. And not in some audophile "my system came alive with these new interconnects" kind of way, it is an obvious and significant difference.

 

[taperkat]

It wasn't so much that (but god would KC Springsteen been so much easier w/dat instead of 2 mds) as much as "i only have to have one deck, no extra batteries, no extra minidiscs, holy shit this is so much easier.

[som]

Yeah, the convenience of DAT over MD is a big plus too. But for me, the sound quality difference was amazing.

[MSTaper]

Decisions, decisions! I'm leaning toward the DAT (used unfortunately) but the Jb3 really intrigues me. Unfortunately, they're not that plentiful. There were a couple on ebay, one refurbished and another an individual was selling as "never used." He's starting at $139 and the reserve has not been met. The refurbished one is 139 or so now. What's y'all's feelings on a refurbished unit?

I really wouldn't want anything too elaborate at first anyway. But I suppose this is like anything else. Start slow and build gradually, learning as you go. This board has been incredibly helpful in the short time I've been here. Plus I've found a local taper who I'm sure will provide a wealth of information.

With the Nomad, would you need a preamp for the mic? And I'm assuming you can upload from the unit to your hard drive with reasobable ease?

Thanks for the continued help. 

[hexyjones]

*]No real service options if repairs necessary

Really? If my JB3 goes wacko (which it hasn't...I freakin' love the thing), am I SOL? I can't believe that Creative's support is that bad....you have direct experience with this happening?

The product was discontinued sometime ago...no suprise they dont support it...

The nice thing about the JB3 is...it is the most "user fixable" of the three...

[hexyjones]

On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.

How does MD manage a 16-bit / 44.1 or 48 kHz optical signal?  Presumably it still applies ATRAC, but...how?  Are you sure it can handle that feed?  Or can it only accept an optical feed from another MD using ATRAC?

It will accept the full blast 16 bit optical signal...BUT

The incoming optical signal gets ATRACed...

[hexyjones]

Decisions, decisions! I'm leaning toward the DAT (used unfortunately) but the Jb3 really intrigues me. Unfortunately, they're not that plentiful. There were a couple on ebay, one refurbished and another an individual was selling as "never used." He's starting at $139 and the reserve has not been met. The refurbished one is 139 or so now. What's y'all's feelings on a refurbished unit?

I really wouldn't want anything too elaborate at first anyway. But I suppose this is like anything else. Start slow and build gradually, learning as you go. This board has been incredibly helpful in the short time I've been here. Plus I've found a local taper who I'm sure will provide a wealth of information.

With the Nomad, would you need a preamp for the mic? And I'm assuming you can upload from the unit to your hard drive with reasobable ease?

Thanks for the continued help. 

Dont get a DAT...a D7 is like over 10 years old...those things were designed in the early 90s

Do you really want to do real time transfers...? A three hour show takes over three hours to get it on disc...With the nomad you can have a 3 hour show on disc in 30 minutes...

Do you really want to buy tape...?

The JB3 refurbs are fine - and they come with a 30 day guarentee...

Just look for one with the "Buy It Now" option...139.00 bucks...get one now while you still can....

[Roamer]

On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.

How does MD manage a 16-bit / 44.1 or 48 kHz optical signal?  Presumably it still applies ATRAC, but...how?  Are you sure it can handle that feed?  Or can it only accept an optical feed from another MD using ATRAC?

On the manual of my Sharp MD, it says that it will resample 32 and 48  to 44.1khz. I don't known if it will resample 44.1 also, but then after there's the ATRAC compression anyway. I have only tried from the output of my Creative soundcard so far.
Going digital is probably more interesting with the new HiMD. I had a look at the manual of the NH1. It says (Specifications): Sampling freq. : 44.1khz, sampling rate converter : Input : 32 khz, 44.1 khz, 48 khz. It might not be bit perfect, but I don't have a HiMD, so I can't tell more.

[Tony B]

*]No real service options if repairs necessary

Really? If my JB3 goes wacko (which it hasn't...I freakin' love the thing), am I SOL? I can't believe that Creative's support is that bad....you have direct experience with this happening?

The product was discontinued sometime ago...no suprise they dont support it...

That's my question/point...do we know for sure that they don't repair them? Do you? Just because it's been discontinued doesn't mean that they won't fix it, does it? I haven't had any problems with mine at all, but I don't know as that one should list a lack of third party repair as a "con".

[The Kilted Taper]

There has been numerous reports of repair denial once they are out of the 30 day warranty.

[Tony B]

Reallllly..what an effin' drag. Glad I got a back up. Still, I wholeheartedly endorse the JB3...for the price, lack of media, ease of use, etc. etc. If a buffoon like me can run it (even with a solid Newcastle buzz going), anyone can.

[MSTaper]

I had the pleasure to accompany a local taper to a show last night here in town. It was quite interesting to say the least. He used the JB3 and is very happy with it. Of course, he explained all the additional components he used, the preamp, the digital/analog converter, etc. After everything was set up I basically helped "guard" the mic stand. What surprised me was that very few people even noticed what was going on or showed any interest. The band was excellent and I'm looking forward to hearing the results. rWc