Author Topic: What's the deal with figure 8 patterns? (Read 5604 times)

KLowe · « **on:** April 29, 2005, 12:11:20 AM »

Hey good people of taper land.

I was trolling for gear today and found an AKG ck94 cap that records in a figure 8 pattern. I looked at the diagram and could not figure out what the hell it was picking up. would you aim this mic at a music source such as a speaker stack or aim it across a stage 90 degrees to the musicians?

Anyone have a short-bus way of explaining the pickup pattern and use for a figure 8 mic cap?

Thanks in advance.

Kevin
(who is still looking for some ck93 caps)

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #1 on:** April 29, 2005, 12:14:56 AM »

The figure-8 pattern is like two cardioids back to back - one lobe facing forward, one lobe facing backwards.

The two most common configs for use with figure-8 patterns are Blumlein (2 x Figure-8 mics) and Mid-Side (1 x Figure-8, 1 x cardioid). Check out DPA Microphones' Mic University for more info.

And when in question, first place to check (ahem!): the Archive forum. Like this post on mic polar patterns.

Teen Age Riot · « **Reply #2 on:** April 29, 2005, 02:20:34 AM »

Moke, what kind of (t?) bar is that on the picture? I'm looking for something like that to run with my 414s...

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #3 on:** April 29, 2005, 02:31:46 AM »

Quote from: moon-pix on April 29, 2005, 02:20:34 AM

Moke, what kind of (t?) bar is that on the picture? I'm looking for something like that to run with my 414s...

Can't answer that one - looks like Shure vert bar + something else - but with my 414s (merely the old ULS, not the hot-shit new XLS!) I can say that I've had success using a Shure vertical bar to mount the top mic, and a small clamp (like the one in the bottom of the pic below) to afix the bottom mic to the stand directly. Works great for coincident configs. Haven't run any near-coincident configs yet, though I do have the K&M t-bar if I want to do so.

1st set only · « **Reply #4 on:** April 29, 2005, 09:10:31 AM »

Quote from: moon-pix on April 29, 2005, 02:20:34 AM

Moke, what kind of (t?) bar is that on the picture? I'm looking for something like that to run with my 414s...

This will do the same
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=40106.0#bot

krebsy · « **Reply #5 on:** April 29, 2005, 10:18:38 AM »

If you hold a 394 directly at the sound source with the rolloff switch on top of the body, it will pick up sound to the left and right of the capsule. Holding a 391/393 in the same orientation would pick up sound if front of you. Incidentally, a ck94 with an AK 40 in an onstage M/S arrangement is sick!!

Teen Age Riot · « **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2005, 01:20:31 PM »

Thanks for the info!

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2005, 02:39:37 PM »

Brian...
the Sabra T bar..the big one, kicks ass for the 414 in any config you can imagine, including spaced omnis and vertical stuff.
Its only like $40. check out micsupply.com

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2005, 02:42:48 PM »

Quote from: mofrogeek on April 29, 2005, 12:11:20 AM

Anyone have a short-bus way of explaining the pickup pattern and use for a figure 8 mic cap?

Thanks in advance.

Kevin
(who is still looking for some ck93 caps)

one thing forgotten...
the rear lobe (or one side) is out of phase. one is + and the other -. that adds something to the soup.

krebsy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 29, 2005, 03:08:20 PM »

Quote from: Nick's Picks on April 29, 2005, 02:42:48 PM

one thing forgotten...
the rear lobe (or one side) is out of phase. one is + and the other -. that adds something to the soup.

I guess it's the fact that the lobes of the fig. 8 are out of phase that makes M/S work. It's amazing to me to listen to the separate unmatrixed M/S channels, and hear how mono, and crappy they sound. As soon as they are mixed, a nice stereo image forms. Neat stuff!

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #10 on:** May 02, 2005, 06:53:38 AM »

yea ...it is cool.
w/the soundfield, I used to be able to put in so much side info (on the fly) that the entire recording would almost sound OOP. Made for an impressive sound stage !

musicsherlock · « **Reply #11 on:** October 17, 2006, 03:52:41 PM »

Quote from: Nick's Picks on April 29, 2005, 02:42:48 PM

one thing forgotten...
the rear lobe (or one side) is out of phase. one is + and the other -. that adds something to the soup.

looking for some technical experience here...
I have an AKG stereo mic (C 522 ENG) and the cardioid caps can be adjusted to 180 deg alignment...this would simulate a Fig-8 pick-up pattern...however, one lobe would not be out of phase...as required in Nick's note above.

I have a 5 pin XLR out of the mic to a single 3 pin XLR to record both caps to the same track...could I invert the phase of that "stereo" track in post and achieve the same or similar result as a fig-8?

OR, should/could I have one phase inverted within the cable?

muj · « **Reply #12 on:** October 17, 2006, 03:58:45 PM »

figure 8? sure symmetrical pattern

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2006, 04:00:52 PM »

the 522...is that a mid side mic, or fixed XY? I know i've seen one before.

musicsherlock · « **Reply #14 on:** October 17, 2006, 04:13:19 PM »

It's essentially an XY mic...but the caps can be adjusted so that they are back-to-back (180 degree alignment)...

there is also an MS version but that is not what I have.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #15 on:** October 17, 2006, 04:20:13 PM »

interesting.
I have an old sony f99 mic that is a stereo mic w/two cards facing 180deg. I've not used it though to comment on how it sounds.

qpwoei · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2006, 04:14:54 PM »

This may help someone sometime:

after using for a couple weeks the AKG CK94 capsule as a side mic and a Senn KE66 as mid, I could'n t get any decent stereo image. Why so, the mix was done correctly!! (btw, there is a free VST Voxengo plugin which does the trick wonderfully). Yet I started to consider suicide because it sounded MONO !! :-)

Fortunately in the end I got it: if you combine a very powerful mid mic (as the ME indeed is) with the figure-8 AKG you have to balance signals from both mics in order to get a true m/s recording. I mean you *must* lower signal from most power one until it is about the same power as that coming from the side mic (the reason in my case being that CK94 is only 12 mV sensitive vs 40 or so mV of the Senn). If you *dont*, the mid mic will saturate both left and side channels of the mix and ... no stereo whatsoever. Concludingly you need a decent mixer/interface to go M/S

cheers

RebelRebel · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2006, 05:09:46 PM »

and the nulls on the side of the figure 8s are very useful...blumlein is the best pattern going, imho..nothing touches it.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:27:38 PM »

Quote from: Teddy on October 19, 2006, 05:09:46 PM

blumlein is the best pattern going, imho..nothing touches it.

yup.
all things being equal, blumlein will always be superiour in its realism.
thats why I have such a hardon for Soundfield mics. they do blumlein like no other.

RebelRebel · « **Reply #19 on:** October 19, 2006, 07:01:19 PM »

Quote from: Nick's Picks on October 19, 2006, 06:27:38 PM

Quote from: Teddy on October 19, 2006, 05:09:46 PM
blumlein is the best pattern going, imho..nothing touches it.

yup.
all things being equal, blumlein will always be superiour in its realism.
thats why I have such a hardon for Soundfield mics. they do blumlein like no other.

I dont mind the blumlein capability..but the whole surround thing is unwanted baggage to me. I dont, and never will(dont think so anyway) do surround mixing.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #20 on:** October 19, 2006, 07:02:55 PM »

ne neither.
what makes the soundfields so kick ass is the "Z" factor of up and down info as well as X and Y.
when that is mixed down to two channels, it gets very realistic sounding.

Author Topic: What's the deal with figure 8 patterns? (Read 5604 times)

RebelRebel

RebelRebel