Topic: SP-CMC-2 vs MM-HLSC-1

[corsair]

I'm in the market for a pair of cardiods for stealth taping...

Have found these 2 pairs of mics.... Has anyone done a
head to head comparison between these 2???

Thanks!

[TheWildKindness]

I'm in the market for a pair of cardiods for stealth taping...

Have found these 2 pairs of mics.... Has anyone done a
head to head comparison between these 2???

Thanks!

<p>

 Don't know anything about the MM-HLSC-1, though I've been using the SP-CMC-2 (aka AT 831) for over a year now, and I am very satisfied with my purchase, especially for the price. Sure they may be on the 'lower end' to some people, but for the price and the quality (especially for a new taper on a budget)...I don't think they can be beat. Eventually I would like to upgrade to some hyper cards to cut back on some crowd noise, but I have pulled some pretty good recordings with these mics. I recently recorded a 3 piece blues,ragtime, jugband out in the open air with no amps used on the instruments and it turned out amazingly well.

 Just my 2 cents

[fandelive]

well,

the frequency response and the maximum input sound level of the Senheiser (MM) mics are better (+ you get 360 degrees rotational holding clips which can be useful when using cardioids)... but they cost 90$ more than the SP mics...
it's up to you. it's not the same budget. keep in mind that you'll have to add a battery-box or a pre-amp for loud concerts taping purpose.


 

[Humbug]

Eventually I would like to upgrade to some hyper cards to cut back on some crowd noise, but I have pulled some pretty good recordings with these mics.

I also am happy with the CMC2s, also I have heard a very nice recording with the MM-HLSL-3 (I think these are similar, see http://www.microphonemadness.com/categories/gold_series.html).

Interesting your point about crowd noise - I recently ran CMC2s in parallel with some CMC6(Hypers) at a festival, and while clarity increased slightly, I lost some midrange, plus crowd noise was slightly higher. The testing continues..

[corsair]

well,

the frequency response and the maximum input sound level of the Senheiser (MM) mics are better (+ you get 360 degrees rotational holding clips which can be useful when using cardioids)... but they cost 90$ more than the SP mics...
it's up to you. it's not the same budget. keep in mind that you'll have to add a battery-box or a pre-amp for loud concerts taping purpose.


 

Hmm... pardon my newbie question, how can the 360 degress rotational holding clips be useful? Easier to point the mics at the stack?

[fandelive]

Hmm... pardon my newbie question, how can the 360 degress rotational holding clips be useful? Easier to point the mics at the stack?

check out this thread :
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=26461.0

it's about microphones placement techniques. to get a good stereo image when using cardioid mics, placement is crucial.

[Evil Taper]

What type of music are you planning on taping mostly and in what type of venues?  Depending on this you may want to go with something completely different.

[corsair]

I should be taping mostly Rock music...the venues can range from open parks, to concert halls to indoor sports arena... So I need something versatile here as well as going stealth.

But anyway, I just noticed the AT853s are around the same price as the Sennheisers by MM...Hmmm

[Evil Taper]

I wouldn't run the AT853s without a phantom power setup.  When you run them with just a standard battery box they tend to get overloaded by the bass levels and cause distortion on your recordings.  I'm not sure if the cmc-2 suffer from these issues also but you might wanna poke around and try to find some more information about them.  There's PROBABLY a reason that nobody who tapes regularly uses the MM-HLSC-1 mics.  The SP-CMC-8 or SP-CMC-2 do produce nice tapes pretty consistently when they aren't being overloaded so you might want to stick with those.

[Humbug]

I'm not sure if the cmc-2 suffer from these issues also but you might wanna poke around and try to find some more information about them. 

Pretty impossible to overload CMC2s with a battery box. If they can withstand Velvet Revolver at ear-splitting volume, they'll take just about anything. +t by the way!

[noam]

There's PROBABLY a reason that nobody who tapes regularly uses the MM-HLSC-1 mics. 

I tape acoustic and use the Sennheisers regularly. I have made a very careful comparison between the microphonemadness  Sennheisers (microphone element is based on KE10 capsule, used in Sennheiser's  MKE 40 lavalier and  MKE44P stereo microphones) and the SP CMC-8 cardioids (the AT943’s), as well as the SP CMC-2 cardioids sans phantom and I like the Sennheisers better. The Sennheisers vs. the CMC-2 is a no brainer – even Chris from SP conceded to me that the Sennheisers are better than the CMC-2. But the CMC-8 have a better reputation on TS than the Sennheisers.

I double taped with the Sennheisers and the CMC-8 as well the CMC-2 cardioids in several different venues (I donned 2 sets of croakies on two sets of glasses one on top of the other, the second pair of glasses was just frames, hooked up to two different battery boxes into line in of two different DAT's, one in each pocket) - that was a perfect 1:1 comparison and the Sennheisers clearly beat any AT's. The way I use them, the Sennheisers give a clearly superior sound. The AT 943’s give more trebly sound, thin on the bass, and, more significantly, flatter sound with less ambiance, less depth. This may be due to the AT’s smaller size, which matters in cardioids – the Sennheisers are really relatively huge, larger than the largest stealthy AT’s. The CMC-2 performed very bad.
Would the CMC-8 give me richer bass and deeper sound with more ambiance with phantom power? I don’t know.
What I really would like to know right now is what’s available out there in small capsules up to .75 inch x1.25 inch, above $250.
Noam

[Humbug]

I tape acoustic and use the Sennheisers regularly.

The CMC-2 performed very bad.

I'm interested as to how, and why, they performed badly. Presumably setup was SPCMC2>SPSPSB1(or 6)>DAT ?

I have used the CMC2s several times to record acoustic shows, and they have usually excelled (only failing is when the crowd is noisy, but that would ruin just about any acoustic show you're stealthing).

Humbug

[noam]

I tape acoustic and use the Sennheisers regularly.

The CMC-2 performed very bad.

I'm interested as to how, and why, they performed badly. Presumably setup was SPCMC2>SPSPSB1(or 6)>DAT ?

One was SPCMC-X>MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box">DAT and the other Sennheisers>SPSPSB1>DAT (or vice versa, I use the MM and SP battery boxes interchangeably). The CMC-2 recorded singers and orchestra with less polished, less crisp sound. It was simply inferior sound like a picture with less resolution – there was less detail, the sound was cruder. It was also too colored towards bright (mainly trebly). The CMC-8's are also bright, but not so distorted. That was not a subtle difference. I cannot listen to the CMC-2 tapes.

Noam

[Humbug]

Cheers, +t for the detailed explanation.

Must admit I've not heard a CMC2 recording of unamplified (eg orchestral) music. The acoustic stuff I've been taping is all amplified.

I can assure you that for amplified rock music, they excel!

[Evil Taper]

Not to fluff my gear or anything...but have you looked into DPA 4061 at all?  None of the mics mentioned can touch them in terms of clarity, frequency response or spl handling.  I picked mine up used on ebay for under $400 and have been extremely pleased with them.  Compared to my AT853s it's a no brainer as far as quality goes, however, sometimes I wish I had cardiods instead of omnis because the 4061s are brutally realistic.  The recording will sound exactly how the venue sounds in the spot where the mics are and will be uncolored.  Just another option to think about if you're already looking to drop at least $250 on some lower end cards.

[noam]

Compared to my AT853s it's a no brainer as far as quality goes, however, sometimes I wish I had cardiods instead of omnis because the 4061s are brutally realistic. 

The DPA 406X give the best sound I've heard from omnis when combined with their DPA MMA6000 preamp. Personally, the venue determines for me the pickup pattern I have to use. Omnis are fine for recitals, concert halls or small venues. But in a large house with an orchestra pit separating me from the singers I feel I have to use cardioids. BTW, the MM $250 Sennheiser omnis (mke-2) are excellent too, (not the same class as the DPA's, though). But excellent stealthy omnis are easy to come buy; cardioids are a more difficult issue - Noam

[corsair]

Thanks for all the replies

Actually, I own a pair of OKM II Rock Omnis already. They work very well in open park and indoor recordings. However,
in my local arena, which is dome shaped, they suffer abit from the acoustics of the place. Furthermore, I kinda hate
wearing them in my ears while doing the taping. The DPAs are very nice, but outta my budget..

Hence, I'm looking for a pair of cardioids for different taping situations. Looking at how CMC-4 requires to bring more gear
in for phantom power, its turning me off. Leaning more towards the CMC-2 now over the Sennheisers now, because
I feel they are more bang for buck for what I'll be recording.... Unless someone can really suggest
something else besides these two, and dun burn a hole in my pocket. 

[Evil Taper]

Well how are you planning on wearing the mics?  Cards are definately more sensitive to placement and movement while recording so keep that in mind also.  I'll agree with you that cards are much more forgiving in crappy sounding venues and sometimes I wish I had some really nice cards to stealth with but the ease of stealthing 4061s is beyond what any cards can offer.  What's you're total budget for this rig and what do you have bought already?  Keep in mind that you need a power unit and a recorder also so the mics alone aren't getting the job done.  Honestly, there's no stealth setup that will always pull excellent tapes.  It mostly depends on the venue and where/how you tape that night.  And please don't forget that these are YOUR recordings so get what you like the sound of best.

[corsair]

I was planning to clip the mics to the collars of my polo T-shirt and rotate the mics to point at the source...

My old rig was OKM II R( comes with its own battery box) > Sony D7.

Have since sold my D7, am using an Archos Gmini 400 now.
Am also planning to get a Reactive Sounds Preamp to power the mics...Read pretty
good things about it, so I'm going to give it a try...which leaves me around
$250 for the mics...

[macdaddy]

noam wrote:

One was SPCMC-X>MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box">DAT and the other Sennheisers>SPSPSB1>DAT (or vice versa, I use the MM and SP battery boxes interchangeably).

noam - which battery box do you prefer..?

and have you tried the c/s cardioids..? i have a pair i could send you if you wanted to use them to run some tests...

[noam]

noam wrote:

One was SPCMC-X>MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box">DAT and the other Sennheisers>SPSPSB1>DAT (or vice versa, I use the MM and SP battery boxes interchangeably).

noam - which battery box do you prefer..?

I prefer the SP for two reasons: 1) it is better designed, because lying in my pocket I prefer the in and out cords to come from the same side; 2) the SP may be more reliable - I have a friend who had signal drops in one channel with the MM, and he went through hell until finding out it's the box. But it may be comparing apples to oranges, because MM have a bigger box and SP have a miniature one. I also prefer to have them run on one 9v battery, rather than a car remote battery or 3X3V like the "Mint Box", because they last longer (and when they die, that screws up a tape). - Noam

[noam]

and have you tried the c/s cardioids..? i have a pair i could send you if you wanted to use them to run some tests...

Hey, I love 1:1 comparisons! They are panasonic capsules, are they not? My first tickets for this upcoming season for cardioid venues are October 1, 7, 12, 14, 20, Nov 10, 17, (NY) - and then 6 performances in Tel Aviv, Barcelona and Madrid, so that would be a lot of opportunities to compare - unless one performnce will give clear results. I usually prefer to compare in 2 venues, so that's at least Oct 1& 12.

Noam

[macdaddy]

i would like to have them back by the end of october, as i am considering using them at the beginning of november...

but if you would like to use them until then, send me a pm, and i will get them out to you...