Topic: 4 source mic comp!!! *now matrix comp too*

[mmmatt]

***Just added the matrix comp***
file name:  4 source matrix comp
file name: 4 source mic comp
ftp.tapers.org
user:  ftp4all
pass:  ftp4all

or you can access through your browser here  www.tapers.org

Hey All,
I just got finished putting together a 4 source mic comp from Fareed Haques new club in Dekalb IL that I recorded last Wed.  Fareed is looking to put in a permanatly installed house recording system and we were testing mic locations.  The Band was Eric Person and Meta Four... Awesome "mainstream jazz" quartet.  Fareed sat in on the last song and that is the one I used for my test. It is on it's way up to tapers.org as we speak.  I will post back when it is moved over to the public area.  It's ready to go!!

As a side note.  Eric came up to me after the show and was very excited about being recorded!  He is getting set up on the archive now.  This band is very good and I will be posting more info about them along with the link to the archive version of the finalized recording.  In the end this will be a 4 track post matrix, mixing in the board feed.  I may do another comp with the sources all mixed with the board feed in a few days.  For now here is a link to his site.  He is very taperfriendly so feel free to catch him if you can!  http://www.ericperson.com/


Here is the info on the comp:

4 source mic comp
Eric Person and Meta Four
11-16-2005
The House Café
Dekalb, IL
Recorded by Matthew McCulloch  mmmatt@tapers.org

Eric Person - Sax
John Esposito - Piano
Kenny Davis - Bass
Peter O'Brien - Drums
W/ special guest Fareed Haque on guitar for the encore (test track)


Tracks A, B, C, D

Sources are as follows:
MBHO 603/KA200, ORTF from support post in sweet spot > R4

Neumann Km184's, ORTF from support post in sweet spot > R4

Studio Projects C4's, split omni, ~8' spread, hung over front of stage from above pointing down > macki onyx1220 > firewire > laptop

Studio Projects C1's, vertical x/y on stage 1/3 closer to piano on left, 36" high pointed at center of drumset> macki onyx1220 > firewire > laptop

All sources were normalized to 99% and dithered using wavelab

Which is which!!!!

[grider]

cool project, Matt, thanks, and who supplied the 184's for this comp recording?

[mmmatt]

cool project, Matt, thanks, and who supplied the 184's for this comp recording?

Thoes are fareeds personal mics.  He doesn't like them... says they are not warm enough for him.  I may offer to buy them from him, but I'm not sure yet.
     I was hoping you would see this because of your recent stage mic'ing thread.  These sources are all VERY nice.  I wonder how many people will prefer the sweetspot from the stage?  Should be fun!

Matt

[mmmatt]

this comp is now available for d/l  please post any comments, and your guess on which is which!  This should actually be pretty easy.

file name: 4 source mic comp
ftp.tapers.org
user:  ftp4all
pass:  ftp4all

or you can access through your browser here  www.tapers.org

Matt

[Unitmonster]

Thoughts:

A)  Nice "in your face" recording.  Mix not exactly the way I'd like it (piano and bass not so present, drums a bit intrusive).  Interesting soundstage.

B) Far less dynamics in the soundstage (closer to a mono mix), a bit more distant. Better mix in terms of balance in instruments.

C) Very similar to B but a bit better definition IMO

D) A bit like A, but better bottom end, a bit muddy up mid-high. 

Tough call on what I like best.  I think it'd be interesting to hear a mix of A & C.  If the mix were better on A that would be my choice.

[mmmatt]

Thoughts:

A)  Nice "in your face" recording.  Mix not exactly the way I'd like it (piano and bass not so present, drums a bit intrusive).  Interesting soundstage.

B) Far less dynamics in the soundstage (closer to a mono mix), a bit more distant. Better mix in terms of balance in instruments.

C) Very similar to B but a bit better definition IMO

D) A bit like A, but better bottom end, a bit muddy up mid-high. 

Tough call on what I like best.  I think it'd be interesting to hear a mix of A & C.  If the mix were better on A that would be my choice.

Cool comments.  Do you know which is which?

Matt

[Unitmonster]

Only guessing but I'd say A is the onstage, B and C the sweet spot and D the hung omnis.  Between B and C, I'm not too sure because I don't know MBHOs very well, but I'll just guess that B is the 184's and C the HO's. 

[bhadella]

I would say "C" is my fav. 

A -  Loses keys in mix.  Onstage.
B -  Very dry to my ears.  Limited extension on either highs or lows.  One of sweet spots recordings.  Flabby lows.  MBHO's?
C -  My fav.  Must be sweet spot.  Nice image on drums.  More enjoyable low end.  Pretty highs.  Neumanns?
D - Can definitely hear some latency between channels.  Must be the split omnis.  Nice balanced soundstage with even distibution.   

[mmmatt]

Comments are great!  T's to all who have lent their ears!  I will be working on the mix versions Monday or Tuesday.  I will give the answers to this then as well.

Matt

[Teen Age Riot]

I totally agree with these points, with one exception. I think C is the MBHO tape because of the high end bump.
Also, I hear some background noise on B and C which I guess is coming from somewhere in the room, but it's drowned out on stage and thus can't be heard on A and D.

I would say "C" is my fav. 

A -  Loses keys in mix.  Onstage.
B -  Very dry to my ears.  Limited extension on either highs or lows.  One of sweet spots recordings.  Flabby lows.  MBHO's?
C -  My fav.  Must be sweet spot.  Nice image on drums.  More enjoyable low end.  Pretty highs.  Neumanns?
D - Can definitely hear some latency between channels.  Must be the split omnis.  Nice balanced soundstage with even distibution.   

[poorlyconditioned]

this comp is now available for d/l  please post any comments, and your guess on which is which!  This should actually be pretty easy.

file name: 4 source mic comp
ftp.tapers.org
user:  ftp4all
pass:  ftp4all

or you can access through your browser here  www.tapers.org

Matt

My guess, maybe totally off:

a) onstage cards: biggest stereo image
b) sweet cards: smaller stereo image
c) sweet (spaced) omnis: sounds like there is a lot "air" between the mics
d) onstage omnis:  Sounds mono like, but up close.

I like b) the best I think, both mix and image.

  Richard

[BayTaynt3d]

After lining them all up in Vegas (see attached screenshot), I proceeded to solo/mute one track at a time, switching back and forth with the timeline running, and even trying different mixes of the tracks for the fun of it. However, considering I'm a total newb, I'll probably guess completely wrong, but I'm willing to try nonetheless...

Here are my comments:

A. Piano sounds distant, maybe a bit warm, seperation favors right channel maybe... OTRF? 184's?

B. Better balance across instruments, a little more alive and present, a bit narrow on seperation... XY? C1's, maybe C4's?

C. My favorite, a little more transparent, more alive, nice stereo seperation... C4's, maybe C1's?

D. Liked this the least, decent seperation, but a little muffled sounding... OTRF? 603's?

What was really interesting was how mixing any two or more channels pretty much sounded better than any one source by itself. I'm sure that has something to do with the harmonics/reverb/delay effect of them never being 100% perfectly aligned. Anyway, if I had to pick one favorite, it'd definately be C, with B next in line, then A, and finally D as my least favorite of the bunch.

Thanks for posting this fun little exercise... 

-- Taint

[bhadella]

I totally agree with these points, with one exception. I think C is the MBHO tape because of the high end bump.
Also, I hear some background noise on B and C which I guess is coming from somewhere in the room, but it's drowned out on stage and thus can't be heard on A and D.

I would say "C" is my fav. 

A -  Loses keys in mix.  Onstage.
B -  Very dry to my ears.  Limited extension on either highs or lows.  One of sweet spots recordings.  Flabby lows.  MBHO's?
C -  My fav.  Must be sweet spot.  Nice image on drums.  More enjoyable low end.  Pretty highs.  Neumanns?
D - Can definitely hear some latency between channels.  Must be the split omnis.  Nice balanced soundstage with even distibution.   

If C is the HO's, I need to re-evaluate my mic selection.  Maybe I should pick up a pair....

[Unitmonster]

What was really interesting was how mixing any two or more channels pretty much sounded better than any one source by itself

Agreed.  I think A and C will be a nice combo.  almost like a SBD matrix, with the sweet spot auds compensating for the partial mix of the onstage mics.

[mmmatt]

Wow... thanks for the interest guys!  Tainted you had the right idea to get a good easy way to comp them.  I did that as well and also just burned it and listened to each all the way through.  I'm dying to let out the answers but i will say somebody has nailed it.  When doing multi/matrix stuff I really like having 2 or 3 different mic sources to play with.  Each situation is different and having options is a good thing.  sometimnes I use multiple mic sources and sometimes just one in the mixdown, but having options is a very nice luxury.  I'd like to do the same excersize again but switching a few mics around (ie using c4 cards next to the neumanns and the HO omnis over the stage). 
     A couple more clues here.... The upright bass was amplified on stage, and the upright piano was not.  There is an ever present hum in the PA that I believe to be either the snakes, or the lack of a power conditioner on the amplifier (which is in a back room with the crossover on a different power source).. 
     The house snakes that were in use by the club are old... I'm sure this contributed to some of the lackluster sound comming from the stage sources as they were patched on the snakes.  Regardless of what mic locations are to be used in the house system, I will be doing deicated custom cable runs for the room mics, and if Fareed will spring for it I will be redoing all his snakes, and interconects between the foh booth and the amp room that is behind the stage.  FWIW I did test my connections to the console and the hum was not on my end, although it is not uncommon for my mixer to cause these problems if I don't have the exact same power source as the house PA, or a ground lift in use on my mixer.
     I'm going to try to get the mixed sources done tonight.

Here is a pic of the stage after the show shoing my mics... my pics of the mics on the post didn't come out.


Matt

[BayTaynt3d]

I think you should let the thread run a little longer for others who might want to take a crack at it. But for those who have already guessed, maybe you could PM us with the breakdown (keep a little txt file you can cut and paste or something)? Anyway, just an idea...

[mmmatt]

good idea tainted... pms on the way


Matt

[mmmatt]

matrix comp is up.  letter codes are different for thoes who know... this should be a little tougher but still not so tough. 

file name:  4 source matrix comp
ftp.tapers.org
user:  ftp4all
pass:  ftp4all

[BayTaynt3d]

You might want to delete the photo because it gives some of the mics away... 

[mmmatt]

You might want to delete the photo because it gives some of the mics away... 

no the sources are all already listed in the first post.  I want people to know what is there and how I used them.  The only question is which is which.

Matt

[bluegrass_brad]

Matt you need to talk him into replacing those cheap plastic JBL speakers for some Myer boxes.

[mmmatt]

Matt you need to talk him into replacing those cheap plastic JBL speakers for some Myer boxes.

I'm sure that is great advice Brad, but probably not the biggest priority.  In the case of this jazz quartet all the PA was doing was being a vocal mic that caught some drums and sax, being an overhead for the piano, and generating a bunch of hum... the board feed almost sounded like a multitrack chanel of piano only!  New club owned by a musician... baby steps!  I'm hoping he'll let me rerun the snakes, and maybe switch out the amp or put in another furman if that is where the hum is comming from.
     Let me know what you think of the comps Brad... as always I am interested to hear your opinions and insight.

Matt

[bluegrass_brad]

is the sound system being run on the same power leg as lights, etc?  This can often be the cause of hum.  If the sound system is sharing power with the rest of the venue he would probably be better off to have a seperate power line installed that would run the audio stuff only.  It may cost a little more now, but will be well worth it in the long run.  When you unhook all the snake channels from the board is the hum still present?  Have you lifted the power supply to the board to see if that alters the hum? If yes is the answer to these its very likely to be a dirty power issue.   Another thing you might try is if the venue is sharing power between audio/lights/etc is to turn up the PA to hear the hum, then start unplugging stage lights, etc one by one.  Sometimes you can find the culprit that way as well.  HUms are a pain in the ass to find, and sometimes you just dont.    Once we pulled and reinstalled a whole PA before a show to no avail. Good luck!

[mmmatt]

is the sound system being run on the same power leg as lights, etc?  This can often be the cause of hum.  If the sound system is sharing power with the rest of the venue he would probably be better off to have a seperate power line installed that would run the audio stuff only.  It may cost a little more now, but will be well worth it in the long run.  When you unhook all the snake channels from the board is the hum still present?  Have you lifted the power supply to the board to see if that alters the hum? If yes is the answer to these its very likely to be a dirty power issue.   Another thing you might try is if the venue is sharing power between audio/lights/etc is to turn up the PA to hear the hum, then start unplugging stage lights, etc one by one.  Sometimes you can find the culprit that way as well.  HUms are a pain in the ass to find, and sometimes you just dont.    Once we pulled and reinstalled a whole PA before a show to no avail. Good luck!

yeah... I'm going to get out there and trouble shoot the PA... I can run the electric for him if his service is updated... not sure how that would fly code wise, but we could always say he did it himself, or just have an electrician come tie it into the box... wait it's Ill and they require pipe... maybe not!  I will trouble shoot it one of these days but he is 2+ hrs away and it will take the better part of a day to really dig into it and run the house mic cables.  Either way I want to change out the snakes... they are ancient, and only 16 chan so not too much soldiering!

Thanks again brad for the advice!  T

Matt

[bluegrass_brad]

Sure thing.  Besides chasing that hum, this sounds like a fun project for sure.

[mmmatt]

You get all the fun jobs

A = MBHO
B = C1
C = C4
D = Neumann

... Based on sound stage and on what I know of the C4/C1 sound.  Def'ly understand why the "higher priced spread" is so popular but my budget still has yet to match my palate.  Thus I'm still listening to "I Can't Believe it's Not Newman's!" 

I'm liking the C trac as well although I haven't voted.

ed to say:  Oh, does the R4 have any color to it compared to the Onyx?

Ok... for thoes who don't know Dave, he has a habit of going from point A to point C without ever telling you point B... Was that your guess for the matrix files or for the mic files dave?  I shut down voting because of the 2 different comps now available.  Dave is also one of the nicest guys you could find... doesn't even mind it when I bust his balls!  T's for the thread guys!  Thanks for your ears.

Matt

[cdevs]

time to hang my ears out there

mics only:
a= SP-C4 split omnis
b= km184s
c= mbhos
d= SP-C1s x/y onstage

[hoyt]

I thought I'd be able to pick out my own mics pretty easily, but it took a lot more thought than that.  I want to think that they're C, but still not too sure.  I like C's sound the most, especially the presence of the piano.  B is nice as well, but missing some detail that C has.

I'll echo this guess because it seems to hold true to my ears, but now I need to know the answer! 
A: C1
B: KM184
C: HO's
D: C4

--hoyt

[mmmatt]

The final matrix files (whole show) are now available on tapers.org  voting is for the mic comps only... not the matrix comp 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=55448.0