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Offline Nick's Picks

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2007, 11:47:14 PM »
This might be nice for recording long business meetings or round table discussions on a laptop, but as a music microphone? Assuming that the two capsules are cardioids (a fairly safe bet, I think), with an angle of only 90 degrees between their axes, the pair would have a whopping 180 degree pickup angle (i.e. sound sources up to 90 degrees in any direction from front and center would be covered completely). That's just too much for most live music, unless you are recording from right on stage with the band, or close-miking a wide instrument such as a piano.

Several other current products feature a fixed angle of 90 degrees between two cardioids as if that was some kind of Platonic ideal. 90 degrees is the ideal angle for a coincident pair of figure-8s, but as you move along the spectrum from there through supercardioid to cardioid, the angle between the axes must increase because the patterns are broader in the front. That's pretty basic. Someone needs to let those manufacturers know that this is bad geometry for the great majority of live music applications.

With such a narrow angle between coincident cardioids, at normal miking distances, sound sources will all "crowd in toward the center" of the stereo sound field in playback. If they made the angle between the microphones 120 degrees instead, that would be a big improvement. Or if they're stuck with 90 degrees as the angle between capsules for some reason, it would help if they used supercardioid capsules, assuming that they know how to make one that sounds any good.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 11:55:42 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 11:59:07 PM »
This might be nice for recording long business meetings or round table discussions on a laptop, but as a music microphone? Assuming that the two capsules are cardioids (a fairly safe bet, I think), with an angle of only 90 degrees between their axes, the pair would have a whopping 180 degree pickup angle (i.e. sound sources up to 90 degrees in any direction from front and center would be covered completely). That's just too much for most live music, unless you are recording from right on stage with the band, or close-miking a wide instrument such as a piano.

Several other current products feature a fixed angle of 90 degrees between two cardioids as if that was some kind of Platonic ideal. 90 degrees is the ideal angle for a coincident pair of figure-8s, but as you move along the spectrum from there through supercardioid to cardioid, the angle between the axes must increase because the patterns are broader in the front. That's pretty basic. Someone needs to let those manufacturers know that this is bad geometry for the great majority of live music applications.

With such a narrow angle between coincident cardioids, at normal miking distances, sound sources will all "crowd in toward the center" of the stereo sound field in playback. If they made the angle between the microphones 120 degrees instead, that would be a big improvement. Or if they're stuck with 90 degrees as the angle between capsules for some reason, it would help if they used supercardioid capsules, assuming that they know how to make one that sounds any good.

--best regards

Umm.  I don't see a big problem.  The "optimal" angle is something like 110 degrees?  Or is it 104 degrees.  Whatever.  90 degrees is pretty close.  Sure, it may give *a bit* of boost to the center, but not that much.  There are just too many other variables to worry about in live recording to get bothered by this.  The main thing is how this mic sounds, and how high sound pressure levels it will tolerate :).

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
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Offline OOK

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 12:11:17 AM »
This might be nice for recording long business meetings or round table discussions on a laptop, but as a music microphone? Assuming that the two capsules are cardioids (a fairly safe bet, I think), with an angle of only 90 degrees between their axes, the pair would have a whopping 180 degree pickup angle (i.e. sound sources up to 90 degrees in any direction from front and center would be covered completely). That's just too much for most live music, unless you are recording from right on stage with the band, or close-miking a wide instrument such as a piano.

Several other current products feature a fixed angle of 90 degrees between two cardioids as if that was some kind of Platonic ideal. 90 degrees is the ideal angle for a coincident pair of figure-8s, but as you move along the spectrum through supercardioid to cardioid, that angle has to increase because the patterns are broader in the front.

That's pretty basic. Someone needs to let those manufacturers know that this is bad geometry for the great majority of live musical applications. With such a narrow angle between coincident cardioids, at normal miking distances, sound sources will all "crowd in toward the center" of the stereo sound field in playback.

If they made the angle between the microphones 120 degrees instead, that would be a big improvement.

--best regards

90 degrees is the standard geometry for the XY recording technique.  Some like it, many use it.  It is generally used for close micing. 

another set up that uses a 90 degree angle is the DIN set up which has the mics at 90 degrees but 20 cm apart.  again some like it and many use it.

and yet another technique is NOS, which uses  a 90degree pattern but 30 CM apart.

The reasons companies use these patterns is because they were develop by individuals studying stereo techniques and these patterns were found to be useful.....  again it is all a matter of taste.

Personally I like a spread of about 20cm with an angle of 110 to 120 degrees.  This is more or less the ORTF technique.  This seems to be what you like as well.  However be aware if you think  mics crossed at 90 degrees gives a 180 degree spread  and that is to much, ORTF's at 120 is an even larger spread.  I am confused by your logic.  Are you trying to avoid  to much of a spread or are you trying to increase it.  Because like I said 120 only increase the amount of ambient noise, it doesn't decrease it.  Peace JK
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 05:13:32 AM »
Most USB mics I have seen don't seem to be up to much.

However - I have just seen in "Audio Media April Edition" that Centrance are just brining out an excellent looking device.

Called the Centrance MicPort 24/96 it looks like a long XLR and you can plug any mic. into it and plug it into your computer's USB port.  It even supplies 48V phantom power.  :D

It certainly looks interesting.

I've only seen the Audio Media announcement so far - I have yet to find more info.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 06:53:55 AM »
I thought this was interesting...., but not exactly earth shattering for us.

90xy is ....pretty default.  show me a fixed XY stereo mic that is not 90deg ?

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 07:26:43 AM »
I dissagre Dsatz,

-regards
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 10:33:17 AM »
Several people have posted that 90˚ is used very often as the angle for X/Y stereo pickup with cardioids, and I can't disagree with that--it is a very common choice. I can even remember that when I bought my first pair of cardioids over 35 years ago, the instruction booklet suggested placing them head-to-head at an angle of 90˚.

Someone even wrote that this angle was "standard." That perception is completely understandable, though in reality there is no such standard. My point is that if there ever were to be such a standard (even if it was only meant as general advice), 90˚ would be a poor choice for it, because of two things which I mentioned before:

[1] This setup results in a stereophonic recording angle of ±90˚, which is absurdly wide for general music recording. In particular situations that call for especially close miking of wide sound sources, or "all-around" pickup (e.g. discussion groups around a table), that approach has value, but for normal music recording with cardioids you usually want an SRA closer to ±50˚ or ±60˚. That requires either a larger angle between the axes of the microphones, some spacing and/or baffling between them and/or a sharper directional pattern.

[2] As you know, you can't make effective X/Y recordings with omnidirectional or "wide cardioid" microphones; the cardioid is the weakest classical directional pattern that allows X/Y stereo recording to function effectively at all. Fully 50% of the signal coming out of any cardioid is the pressure component of the sound field, which is omnidirectional. Thus with two coincident cardioids, even if you aimed them back to back (!), 50% of their output would be identical to each other (i.e. mono). Since no one uses nearly that wide an angle, the overlap in practice is substantially greater than 50%. This degree of correlation between channels is excessively high, and as a direct result, a good sense of spaciousness is not conveyed by such recordings.

If you want to follow the classical notion that the patterns of two microphones in an X/Y pair should intersect at their -3 dB point (i.e. where each one is delivering half power), then the "ideal angle" between an X/Y pair of cardioids would be ca. 131˚! This figure surprised me when I first encountered it in an AES publication, but mathematically it is correct; if anyone wants to discuss the formulas involved, we can do that.

The problem is that many real-world microphones, especially large multi-pattern microphones with dual-diaphragm capsules, are really only cardioid in the midrange. They become more like a "wide cardioid" at low frequencies and more like a supercardioid at higher frequencies. If you make X/Y stereo recordings with this type of microphone, the result is almost mono on the bottom regardless of what angle you choose, while at high frequencies you are constrained by the narrowness of the pattern. Some very well known, very high-priced studio microphones have rather poor off-axis response at high frequencies and are simply not a good choice for X/Y stereo recording even though the microphones may sound wonderful when used separately.

Most folks here seem to be using smaller, single-diaphragm condenser microphones, and that choice makes great sense if coincident or near-coincident stereo recording is what you mainly want to do. But one of the first things I noticed when I landed here was that the stock formulas for microphone distances and angles were being dispensed willy-nilly without any regard for the context in which they might be used. Most of what's been posted here (and not just here--on most Internet discussion groups about recording) is looking at only half the picture, and missing the basic relationship that you want to establish with your pattern choice and the geometry of your setup.

Let me suggest a different way of framing the issue. Most stereo recordings are intended for playback on a pair of loudspeakers that are some distance apart, with the listener some distance from the two loudspeakers. So the two loudspeakers and the listener form a triangle--often something fairly close to an equilateral triangle. From the listener's perspective, the various sound sources in the recording should seem as if they come from various angles within the left-to-right spread of the loudspeakers (and various distances, too--the illusion of depth which a good stereo recording can have). In other words, you want the individual acoustic sources to be "localizable"--perceptually you want them to "map" to points in the playback sound field which more or less resemble where they were coming from when the recording was made.

Coincident ("X/Y") recording can be very good at this mapping--much better than, for example, spaced omni ("A/B") recording. But you have to choose a directional pattern and a mike setup which more or less match the angular spread of the original sound sources with the angular spread of the playback environment, and that's why I mentioned the "stereophonic recording angle" earlier (to use Prof. Michael Williams' term for it--his book and/or his AES papers are very, very helpful in understanding all this). Cardioids at 90˚ would be terrific if stereo systems were typically set up with the left and right speakers on opposite (side) walls of the listening room with the listeners placed between them. If you've made X/Y recordings with cardioids at such a narrow angle, I suggest that you try moving your speakers well apart some time as an experiment--then aim them at each other and stand between them. It should greatly improve the stereo effect, since that is the type of playback system which really corresponds to an X/Y recording with cardioids at 90˚.

But if you're recording for a more normal playback environment, then for general-purpose music recording you really need to angle your cardioids distinctly farther apart than 90˚, and/or (as I said) choose a narrower pattern of microphone, and/or put some space or a baffle between the microphones to reduce the stereophonic recording angle of your setup. Otherwise you have to place the microphones so close to the sound sources that you will get huge imbalances, simply because the microphones will be proportionally so much closer to the sound sources near the front and center than they are to anything else.

Does that make some sense, for those of you who may have struggled through this whole rant?

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 10:59:19 AM by DSatz »
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 10:55:19 AM »
That makes a ton of sense and a great post, but I don't think there was a need to write off this microphone like you did in your first post, and suggest it would be best for a business meeting. It was speciifically designed for music/instruments. 
90degrees aint perfect for many situations, but I can point you to several single point stereo mics that have been used succesfully for ambient recording. 

- regards   ;)
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 11:28:07 AM »
windorabug, thank you for the kind words, and your point is well taken. I just get frustrated when marketing considerations force the designers of a technical product to cater to the lowest common denominator of the customers. You can't find a quiet vacuum cleaner in a department store because many people simply won't believe that a quiet vacuum cleaner can be powerful.

Part of why this is so frustrating is that then, other intelligent people look only at the result without realizing the process that led to it, and they assume that "they wouldn't make the product that way if it wasn't the best way to make it--there must have been a technically valid reason for that approach." Some people are even doing that in this thread. And I'm trying to say that yes, many products are made that way--but that is being done for marketing reasons, i.e. because of the general public's ignorance of technical facts for the most part. We don't have to be part of that ignorance.

And I agree that in some applications a very wide stereophonic recording angle can be useful, so for those specific applications it's not so crazy after all. Close miking a wide sound source is one of them; some people here have that kind of special requirement sometimes. No question there.

For that matter I've recorded and/or transcribed hundreds of meetings and seminars over the years, and the truth is, when I saw the product announcement and the low, low price, I seriously considered buying one of these Marshalls for that application myself! I wasn't scoffing at all when I mentioned the possibility. I'm a big advocate of high-quality stereo condenser microphones for documentary-style recording. Recording quality definitely matters even when what you're recording isn't a concert.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 11:49:57 AM by DSatz »
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stirinthesauce

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 11:40:27 AM »
Once again, it was a pleasure to read your posts, DSatz.  Thanks for your input and knowledge here on our board  :)

-Jon

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 11:49:41 AM »
Once again, it was a pleasure to read your posts, DSatz.  Thanks for your input and knowledge here on our board  :)

-Jon

I fully concur. 
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2007, 01:48:48 PM »
I feel ya DSatz T+
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Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2007, 02:42:11 PM »
Several people have posted that 90˚ is used very often as the angle for X/Y stereo pickup with cardioids, and I can't disagree with that--it is a very common choice. I can even remember that when I bought my first pair of cardioids over 35 years ago, the instruction booklet suggested placing them head-to-head at an angle of 90˚.

Someone even wrote that this angle was "standard." That perception is completely understandable, though in reality there is no such standard. My point is that if there ever were to be such a standard (even if it was only meant as general advice), 90˚ would be a poor choice for it, because of two things which I mentioned before:

[1] This setup results in a stereophonic recording angle of ±90˚

OK, after some coffee I was able to read this, lol.

Now what do you mean by "stereophonic recording angle".  If the mics are at 90 degrees apart, that is the same as +-45 degrees, right?  How do you get +-90 from that?

You brought up a very good point about a pair of cardioids being highly correlated (an equal mix of omni and figure eight, right)?  But another point is the center of the image (where the action is supposed to be) should have the most total power (sum of both channels), otherwise you've got a "hole in the middle" as they say.  That is how they get 110 degrees, or whatever ORTF is, right?

Second question.  If you put the speakers on either side of the room, is that equivalent to listening on headphones?

Those questions aside, I think most of us just want *some* stereo separation.  Unless we are listening to an orchestra or something, we *really* don't know where the sounds are coming from.  Some come from the stage, some come from the PA, and some from the audience, and oh yeah, some from the drunken recordist!

  Richard
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 02:44:02 PM by poorlyconditioned »
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2007, 03:50:36 PM »
Hi, poorlyconditioned--those are some great questions. And I understand about the coffee.

> what do you mean by "stereophonic recording angle".  If the mics are at 90 degrees apart, that is the same as +-45 degrees, right?  How do you get +-90 from that?

Ah. No, the "stereophonic recording angle" isn't the angle between the axes of your microphones. It's the angle of real-world direct sound that you can properly depict with a given mike setup.

If you draw a straight line directly forward from your mike stand (or from the center point between your two stands, for widely-spaced mikes), each type of setup can capture a certain angular range and make it seem to appear sonically, in playback, along a virtual arc between your loudspeakers. If someone was playing finger cymbals in the middle of the stage, the impression of the finger cymbals' sound should seem to be in the center of the overall stereo image in playback. But if the player then moves to the left or right (from your POV) while continuing to play, how far (in terms of the angle away from center) can he or she go before your setup loses their position? Every mike setup has its limit. The stereophonic recording angle of a mike setup expresses that limit as "plus or minus n degrees."

The thing is, a bigger "n" isn't always better, because if all the direct sound is arriving at the mikes from an angle less than your setup's "n", then when you play back the recording, it won't fill the "stereo soundstage" between your speakers. Everything will seem to come more or less from the center area between the two speakers, and there won't be a detailed sense of space or location to anything. And that's usually the situation with X/Y cardioids at 90 degrees simply because they are rarely met with direct sound coming in from a total arc of 180 degrees (the plus-or-minus 90 which is the SRA of that type of setup).

What I've been explaining is that for most normal music recording (overall pickup of a group or solo player or whatever), you expect your loudspeakers to reproduce events that basically happened "in front of" the listeners, with some range from right to left being essential, but everything you're hearing is basically the set of events that happened with a distinct "frontal" orientation to them. But if you record with two coincident (i.e. X/Y) cardioids at a 90-degree included angle, you'll pick up a much wider range of angles from the live situation. Something would have to be occurring all the way to either side of the recording position (i.e. not the left or right of the stage if there is one, but at 9:00 or 3:00 from the microphones' "point of view" which is normally some distance back from the stage) in order to reach the left or right limit of the stereo image in your playback system.

No direct sound ever reaches most two-microphone stereo recording setups from 90 degrees to either side or even close to that. As a result, the stereo image for the direct sound, in playback, is bunched up toward the center--it tends to be pretty strongly mono.

Basically what you want to do when choosing a mike setup is to estimate the angle which the direct sound sources are going to represent for your microphones, and then choose a directional pattern, angle and (maybe) spacing which accept that angle of sound properly--not too much more, and certainly not less.

Is that somewhat more clear? It's definitely more words.


> If you put the speakers on either side of the room, is that equivalent to listening on headphones?

It's a lot like headphones, except that both ears will hear the output of both speakers (though filtered and delayed by what's between your ears, i.e. distance and a head of some kind), plus you won't be as likely to trip over the headphone cord as I so often do.

But I think I see your point: If you monitor over headphones while you're setting up, they'll give you the impression that X/Y cardioids at 90 degrees is a great setup. And if you're recording for headphone listening purposes only, that's even kind of true (although full-out binaural is better). It's just that there is a stubborn difference between headphone and loudspeaker listening, and this is where as a location recordist you can really get bitten.

I say this from a great deal of sad first-hand experience: There is no way for a pair of headphones to tell you how a recording will sound over loudspeakers. They can only give you part of the information you need. I really, really don't want that to be true, since I love being able to make great recordings with a kit that fits into a backpack--but believing any impression that you get from headphones about stereo imagery will lead to disappointment more often than not.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:03:03 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2007, 04:40:05 PM »
man, this guy knows his shit.

Thanks.....
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2007, 08:01:52 AM »
great reading!!!

recently, I started making my XY recordings wider, more like the 110-130deg depending on how tight  I am to the source.  the closer I get, the wider the XY becomes.

I still find 90deg to be the "go to" though, and if things sound really nice from my location then I just go for crossed 8's instead of cards.  that usually produces the sound I like over loudspeakers.

monitoring w/headphones is useless...as is mixing w/them.  but thats me.

Offline bobbygeeWOW

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2007, 10:24:31 AM »
Quote
Something would have to be occurring all the way to either side of the recording position (i.e. not the left or right of the stage if there is one, but at 9:00 or 3:00 from the microphones' "point of view" which is normally some distance back from the stage) in order to reach the left or right limit of the stereo image in your playback system.

No direct sound ever reaches most two-microphone stereo recording setups from 90 degrees to either side or even close to that. As a result, the stereo image for the direct sound, in playback, is bunched up toward the center--it tends to be pretty strongly mono.

Okay I've heard what yer talking about here and not really found an ideal way to fix it. Here's my two morning coffee assisted cents:

Assuming a 90 degree mic angle (whether coincident or not..) with the mics roughly pointing directly at PA stacks on either side of the stage: Direct music sound hits the mics right on-axis. The off-axis sound that extends beyond the 90 degree PA source consists of ambient room sounds of various types (music reverb, audience, etc). While I think this does squash the stereo image of the music towards the centre, it also creates an interesting (and pleasing!) sense of space in terms of that ambient room sound in the resulting recording.

If I move the mics forward, say onstage with acoustic instrument sources, any instruments outside that 90 degree spread lose their directional imaging; presumably due to the the pressure component and they sound like they are coming from "everywhere", with no fixed place in the stereo image. That's not pleasing to me, though it could work if was intended as some sort of specific keyboard wash effect..

So ultimately I accept the music being squashed towards the center somewhat and basically make sure that no direct sound will source from beyond the on-axis spread of my mics. The result is that the sound of the room itself fills in the outside of the stereo image, and I'm generally happy with the resultant sort of live concert effect. Might be why I like wider speaker placement in playback..

Blumlein is psycho-acoustically pretty much a different universe for my little head, though I also keep the direct music sources within the 90 degree spread.

The question that remains though is whether a wider image of the music itself can be created using stereo mic techniques! This isn't a studio close-mic'ed pan hard-right artificial recording environment!

Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2007, 02:52:38 PM »
bobbygeeWOW, the real-world sound angle picked up by a pair of cardioids can very well extend beyond the main axis of either microphone--or it may not, depending on the angle and spacing between them. That's the whole point of finding out the "stereophonic recording angle" for a particular type of setup before you make a recording. You can't see what range of angles will be localizable during playback simply by looking at where your mikes are pointing; that's a total misconception, but it eludes a lot of people.

Please think about this and/or try it out by making some test recordings: The wider you angle your microphones apart, the more they will discriminate smaller angles of left-right location, and the narrower will be the total angle which they can pick up and span between the two loudspeakers in playback. That's the basic relationship which I'm trying to get people to pay attention to. As the angle between your microphones increases, the SRA decreases and vice versa.

You need to choose a setup whose SRA roughly matches the angular range of actual sound sources which you hope to include in your stereo image during playback. With a 90-degree X/Y cardioid setup, the pickup will extend about 45 degrees to either side of both of your microphones' main axes. That's considerably wider than most people seem to realize--from your message, you seemed to think that it was only half that angle! And it is much wider than most people need most of the time for music recording. That's why I look askance at 90 degrees as some kind of default for cardioids. I'd much rather see people choose, say, 120 degrees, then adjust from there as needed.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2007, 05:59:43 PM »
bobbygeeWOW, the real-world sound angle picked up by a pair of cardioids can very well extend beyond the main axis of either microphone--or it may not, depending on the angle and spacing between them. That's the whole point of finding out the "stereophonic recording angle" for a particular type of setup before you make a recording. You can't see what range of angles will be localizable during playback simply by looking at where your mikes are pointing; that's a total misconception, but it eludes a lot of people.

Please think about this and/or try it out by making some test recordings: The wider you angle your microphones apart, the more they will discriminate smaller angles of left-right location, and the narrower will be the total angle which they can pick up and span between the two loudspeakers in playback. That's the basic relationship which I'm trying to get people to pay attention to. As the angle between your microphones increases, the SRA decreases and vice versa.

You need to choose a setup whose SRA roughly matches the angular range of actual sound sources which you hope to include in your stereo image during playback. With a 90-degree X/Y cardioid setup, the pickup will extend about 45 degrees to either side of both of your microphones' main axes. That's considerably wider than most people seem to realize--from your message, you seemed to think that it was only half that angle! And it is much wider than most people need most of the time for music recording. That's why I look askance at 90 degrees as some kind of default for cardioids. I'd much rather see people choose, say, 120 degrees, then adjust from there as needed.

--best regards
Great post.  But I need coffee!  I've had two cups already.  Umm.  I'll get back to this after I finish the pot.  lol.
  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
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Offline bobbygeeWOW

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2007, 06:09:17 PM »
Hmm, Dave, interesting concept..  my observations above are based on what I noticed from my own recordings - using near coincident methods, which introduce time delays to assist with the stereo image and to me sound generally more musically interesting. If not more precise.. From past readings I understand that DIN (20 cm at 90 degrees) has a usable SRA of 100 degrees while interestingly ORTF (17cm at 110 degrees) has a smaller SRA of 95 degrees despite the wider mic angle. This is why ideally with DIN I generally aim towards the outside sound sources (leaving a coupla degree buffer) and with ORTF I aim a coupla degrees to the outside of the outermost sound sources (hopefully enough).

Though to be truthful real life considerations force me to adapt to circumstance; seating location, gear portability, venue shape and size, convenience, crowd enthusiasm, etc often affect placement and config more than anything....

I thought XY relied on off-axis attenuation to create level differences in the sound; which leads to creation of the stereo image ala "-16 db on the right sounds like 30 degrees to the right" sort of stuff, much like a pan knob. Widening the mic angle would increase the off-axis attenuation to a given direction I guess, thus exagerating the level differences and hence, the imaging...  :hmmm:

...which means that the effect of rearward rejection comes into play at some point, thus reducing the usable recording angle or SRA as you call it.... :hmmm:

Just found courtesy of DPA:


I marked XY, ORTF, DIN for reference. This certainly does show that cardioid mics with 0 cm spacing and 90 degree mic angle will give a 180 degree total recording angle, and as the mic angle increases (or the mic spacing increases!), the recording angle decreases. Hence your assertion (or Prof. Michael Williams?) that increased mic angle exagerates stereo image placement becomes completely clear in this light, as each sound source's placement has a bigger relative chunk of the overall image. Cool.

I suppose there is a way to quantify this effect.. also, what is the relationship between SRA and speaker angle? You stated above that moving speakers to 180 degrees to listen to 90 degree XY recordings would optimize the stereo effect. Does this apply for other mic techniques?

Thanks for sparking the speculation, much appreciated!

*Edit for retarded grammar.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 06:18:21 PM by bobbygeeWOW »

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2007, 06:52:48 PM »
OK, three cups of coffee now and increasing.

Can any of you point to a document (eg., where that DPA figure came from) that describes this?

In the DPA figure, what are the labels on each line?  Is that angle outside the microphone position?

Suppose I want to record an auditory scene +-45 degrees in front of me.  That is, I want to get something in front, but reject the stuff (eg., crowd) at the sides.  How should I aim the mics?  One school of thought says to angle them either DIN or ORTF.  They will pick up from the sides, so maybe you want to have a narrower mic angle, like 60 degrees between the mics.  In this case, they will pick up less from the sides, but there will be overemphasis of the center.  You will reject the sides, but the signal will be more "mono".

The only way I can see to fix this problem is to get more directional mics, like hypers or even shotguns.  Then you will be able to get both a balanced contribution accross the front, and reject the sides.

Are you saying we should put a wider angle, like 120 degrees, between the mics?  I don't get that part.

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2007, 07:32:47 PM »
Interesting discussion. I'll have to reread it in the morning. It's too late in the day for me to follow it all. I did have this to add:

The main thing is how this mic sounds, and how high sound pressure levels it will tolerate :).
  Richard
"The MXL.007 USB also has a maximum SPL (Sound Pressure Level) rating of 137 dB"
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2007, 09:18:04 PM »
bobbygeeWOW, everything that you said in your first two paragraphs is consonant with what I'm trying to say here, including the part about adapting to real-world circumstances. (I feel that no apology is ever necessary for doing that, by the way; it's a positive accomplishment when it works.)

To me, the graph which you copied from DPA's Web site looks very much as if it was derived from Michael Williams' work, and his book "Microphone Arrays for Stereo and Multichannel Sound Recording" is my primary point of reference, so we're definitely talking the same language. Another good source is the Web site http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/ (which is in English despite its German domain).

poorlyconditioned, if what you're asking about is the single-digit numbers in the circles along the curved lines in the DPA graph--those are indicators of another aspect of a mike setup which can influence one's choice of angle, directional pattern and possibly spacing: the maximum value of "angular distortion" which will occur for that particular setup.

"Angular distortion" is the discrepancy, in degrees, between where a sound was actually coming from when the recording was made versus where it will seem to be coming from when the recording is played back over loudspeakers in a hypothetical "typical" listening configuration (normally an equilateral triangle with the speakers and the listener in its corners).

"Maximum" angular distortion simply means "the worst-case value." All other things being equal (as they say), it's nice when this number is lower rather than higher. I'm being vague on purpose because some listeners are far more sensitive to this than others, and vary greatly in the esthetic value (if any) which they place on it.

I know some musicians--string players and singers especially--who listen almost exclusively for tone (timbre); as long as there's any sense of spatiality in the recording at all, they're satisfied with the stereo aspect, and they truly don't care whether particular sound sources can be localized or not. To some people localization is a meaningless parlor trick and to others it's a bedrock virtue. Go figure.

By the way, I hope it's clear that any one graph like the one in bobbygeeWOW's message above can be valid only for one directional pattern--in this case, cardioid. The same angles and distances between a pair of wide cardioid or supercardioid or figure-8 microphones would produce very different sets of relationships and very different graphs as a result. If you want the lowest angular distortion, consider Blumlein stereo recording but be sure to watch out for that setup's narrow SRA of only ±45°!

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:32:11 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2007, 11:22:37 PM »
bobbygeeWOW, everything that you said in your first two paragraphs is consonant with what I'm trying to say here, including the part about adapting to real-world circumstances. (I feel that no apology is ever necessary for doing that, by the way; it's a positive accomplishment when it works.)

To me, the graph which you copied from DPA's Web site looks very much as if it was derived from Michael Williams' work, and his book "Microphone Arrays for Stereo and Multichannel Sound Recording" is my primary point of reference, so we're definitely talking the same language. Another good source is the Web site http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/ (which is in English despite its German domain).

poorlyconditioned, if what you're asking about is the single-digit numbers in the circles along the curved lines in the DPA graph--those are indicators of another aspect of a mike setup which can influence one's choice of angle, directional pattern and possibly spacing: the maximum value of "angular distortion" which will occur for that particular setup.

"Angular distortion" is the discrepancy, in degrees, between where a sound was actually coming from when the recording was made versus where it will seem to be coming from when the recording is played back over loudspeakers in a hypothetical "typical" listening configuration (normally an equilateral triangle with the speakers and the listener in its corners).

"Maximum" angular distortion simply means "the worst-case value." All other things being equal (as they say), it's nice when this number is lower rather than higher. I'm being vague on purpose because some listeners are far more sensitive to this than others, and vary greatly in the esthetic value (if any) which they place on it.

I know some musicians--string players and singers especially--who listen almost exclusively for tone (timbre); as long as there's any sense of spatiality in the recording at all, they're satisfied with the stereo aspect, and they truly don't care whether particular sound sources can be localized or not. To some people localization is a meaningless parlor trick and to others it's a bedrock virtue. Go figure.

By the way, I hope it's clear that any one graph like the one in bobbygeeWOW's message above can be valid only for one directional pattern--in this case, cardioid. The same angles and distances between a pair of wide cardioid or supercardioid or figure-8 microphones would produce very different sets of relationships and very different graphs as a result. If you want the lowest angular distortion, consider Blumlein stereo recording but be sure to watch out for that setup's narrow SRA of only ±45°!

--best regards

I just went to that website.  There was a broken! link to an AES 2002 file.  Do you have a working link (or can you Email me the PDF).  I'd actually like to read the full paper on this topic.  I can't make much sense of the webpages.

Modified to add: OK I just found some documents here:  http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/wfs.htm

  Richard
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 11:25:35 PM by poorlyconditioned »
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
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Offline bobbygeeWOW

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2007, 02:39:43 PM »
Hey Richard, here ya go:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/Images/DM03547.pdf

With respect to rejecting more side and rear sound sources, you might also want to check out some interesting experiments Moke was doing with parallel cardioids and a Jeklin disk baffle in hopes of increasing perceived stereophonic information. Not sure where that thread is, but he had samples up.

Of course I know absolutely nothing.  ::)  But I think the key bit I picked up here thanks to David is that counterintuitively, the recording angle decreases as you increase yer cardioid XY angle past 90 degrees. So if that's the case, stage lip you would want 90 degree XY angle to get the full +-90 degree recording angle, and as you move back you increase the XY angle to reduce the recording angle in accordance with your position... up until you get hole-in-the-middle problems. It works similarly with near coincident configs like DIN and friends but with different relationships since mic spacing introduces timing into the stereo imaging. Makes me realize I need a NOS bar.

-Cheers!


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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2007, 01:04:59 AM »
hey
this is a great thread
and great points
but has anyone tried out the MXL USB.007 ?

it seems like it could be a fairly cool mic and an inexpensive way for newbie laptoip taper top get started...


I usually run 110° ORTF
I like the wider image that I can get from it as opposed to 90° XY
but I would say that XY at a wider angle opens the image up...especially spaced

any how thanx for all the input and discussion
and cool images too!

but I digress

anyone test the MXL?

Nick?



some one should take it for a test drive...

peace
-- Ian
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