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Offline Nick's Picks

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2007, 11:47:14 PM »
This might be nice for recording long business meetings or round table discussions on a laptop, but as a music microphone? Assuming that the two capsules are cardioids (a fairly safe bet, I think), with an angle of only 90 degrees between their axes, the pair would have a whopping 180 degree pickup angle (i.e. sound sources up to 90 degrees in any direction from front and center would be covered completely). That's just too much for most live music, unless you are recording from right on stage with the band, or close-miking a wide instrument such as a piano.

Several other current products feature a fixed angle of 90 degrees between two cardioids as if that was some kind of Platonic ideal. 90 degrees is the ideal angle for a coincident pair of figure-8s, but as you move along the spectrum from there through supercardioid to cardioid, the angle between the axes must increase because the patterns are broader in the front. That's pretty basic. Someone needs to let those manufacturers know that this is bad geometry for the great majority of live music applications.

With such a narrow angle between coincident cardioids, at normal miking distances, sound sources will all "crowd in toward the center" of the stereo sound field in playback. If they made the angle between the microphones 120 degrees instead, that would be a big improvement. Or if they're stuck with 90 degrees as the angle between capsules for some reason, it would help if they used supercardioid capsules, assuming that they know how to make one that sounds any good.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 11:55:42 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2007, 11:59:07 PM »
This might be nice for recording long business meetings or round table discussions on a laptop, but as a music microphone? Assuming that the two capsules are cardioids (a fairly safe bet, I think), with an angle of only 90 degrees between their axes, the pair would have a whopping 180 degree pickup angle (i.e. sound sources up to 90 degrees in any direction from front and center would be covered completely). That's just too much for most live music, unless you are recording from right on stage with the band, or close-miking a wide instrument such as a piano.

Several other current products feature a fixed angle of 90 degrees between two cardioids as if that was some kind of Platonic ideal. 90 degrees is the ideal angle for a coincident pair of figure-8s, but as you move along the spectrum from there through supercardioid to cardioid, the angle between the axes must increase because the patterns are broader in the front. That's pretty basic. Someone needs to let those manufacturers know that this is bad geometry for the great majority of live music applications.

With such a narrow angle between coincident cardioids, at normal miking distances, sound sources will all "crowd in toward the center" of the stereo sound field in playback. If they made the angle between the microphones 120 degrees instead, that would be a big improvement. Or if they're stuck with 90 degrees as the angle between capsules for some reason, it would help if they used supercardioid capsules, assuming that they know how to make one that sounds any good.

--best regards

Umm.  I don't see a big problem.  The "optimal" angle is something like 110 degrees?  Or is it 104 degrees.  Whatever.  90 degrees is pretty close.  Sure, it may give *a bit* of boost to the center, but not that much.  There are just too many other variables to worry about in live recording to get bothered by this.  The main thing is how this mic sounds, and how high sound pressure levels it will tolerate :).

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
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Offline OOK

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 12:11:17 AM »
This might be nice for recording long business meetings or round table discussions on a laptop, but as a music microphone? Assuming that the two capsules are cardioids (a fairly safe bet, I think), with an angle of only 90 degrees between their axes, the pair would have a whopping 180 degree pickup angle (i.e. sound sources up to 90 degrees in any direction from front and center would be covered completely). That's just too much for most live music, unless you are recording from right on stage with the band, or close-miking a wide instrument such as a piano.

Several other current products feature a fixed angle of 90 degrees between two cardioids as if that was some kind of Platonic ideal. 90 degrees is the ideal angle for a coincident pair of figure-8s, but as you move along the spectrum through supercardioid to cardioid, that angle has to increase because the patterns are broader in the front.

That's pretty basic. Someone needs to let those manufacturers know that this is bad geometry for the great majority of live musical applications. With such a narrow angle between coincident cardioids, at normal miking distances, sound sources will all "crowd in toward the center" of the stereo sound field in playback.

If they made the angle between the microphones 120 degrees instead, that would be a big improvement.

--best regards

90 degrees is the standard geometry for the XY recording technique.  Some like it, many use it.  It is generally used for close micing. 

another set up that uses a 90 degree angle is the DIN set up which has the mics at 90 degrees but 20 cm apart.  again some like it and many use it.

and yet another technique is NOS, which uses  a 90degree pattern but 30 CM apart.

The reasons companies use these patterns is because they were develop by individuals studying stereo techniques and these patterns were found to be useful.....  again it is all a matter of taste.

Personally I like a spread of about 20cm with an angle of 110 to 120 degrees.  This is more or less the ORTF technique.  This seems to be what you like as well.  However be aware if you think  mics crossed at 90 degrees gives a 180 degree spread  and that is to much, ORTF's at 120 is an even larger spread.  I am confused by your logic.  Are you trying to avoid  to much of a spread or are you trying to increase it.  Because like I said 120 only increase the amount of ambient noise, it doesn't decrease it.  Peace JK
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 05:13:32 AM »
Most USB mics I have seen don't seem to be up to much.

However - I have just seen in "Audio Media April Edition" that Centrance are just brining out an excellent looking device.

Called the Centrance MicPort 24/96 it looks like a long XLR and you can plug any mic. into it and plug it into your computer's USB port.  It even supplies 48V phantom power.  :D

It certainly looks interesting.

I've only seen the Audio Media announcement so far - I have yet to find more info.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 06:53:55 AM »
I thought this was interesting...., but not exactly earth shattering for us.

90xy is ....pretty default.  show me a fixed XY stereo mic that is not 90deg ?

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 07:26:43 AM »
I dissagre Dsatz,

-regards
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 10:33:17 AM »
Several people have posted that 90˚ is used very often as the angle for X/Y stereo pickup with cardioids, and I can't disagree with that--it is a very common choice. I can even remember that when I bought my first pair of cardioids over 35 years ago, the instruction booklet suggested placing them head-to-head at an angle of 90˚.

Someone even wrote that this angle was "standard." That perception is completely understandable, though in reality there is no such standard. My point is that if there ever were to be such a standard (even if it was only meant as general advice), 90˚ would be a poor choice for it, because of two things which I mentioned before:

[1] This setup results in a stereophonic recording angle of ±90˚, which is absurdly wide for general music recording. In particular situations that call for especially close miking of wide sound sources, or "all-around" pickup (e.g. discussion groups around a table), that approach has value, but for normal music recording with cardioids you usually want an SRA closer to ±50˚ or ±60˚. That requires either a larger angle between the axes of the microphones, some spacing and/or baffling between them and/or a sharper directional pattern.

[2] As you know, you can't make effective X/Y recordings with omnidirectional or "wide cardioid" microphones; the cardioid is the weakest classical directional pattern that allows X/Y stereo recording to function effectively at all. Fully 50% of the signal coming out of any cardioid is the pressure component of the sound field, which is omnidirectional. Thus with two coincident cardioids, even if you aimed them back to back (!), 50% of their output would be identical to each other (i.e. mono). Since no one uses nearly that wide an angle, the overlap in practice is substantially greater than 50%. This degree of correlation between channels is excessively high, and as a direct result, a good sense of spaciousness is not conveyed by such recordings.

If you want to follow the classical notion that the patterns of two microphones in an X/Y pair should intersect at their -3 dB point (i.e. where each one is delivering half power), then the "ideal angle" between an X/Y pair of cardioids would be ca. 131˚! This figure surprised me when I first encountered it in an AES publication, but mathematically it is correct; if anyone wants to discuss the formulas involved, we can do that.

The problem is that many real-world microphones, especially large multi-pattern microphones with dual-diaphragm capsules, are really only cardioid in the midrange. They become more like a "wide cardioid" at low frequencies and more like a supercardioid at higher frequencies. If you make X/Y stereo recordings with this type of microphone, the result is almost mono on the bottom regardless of what angle you choose, while at high frequencies you are constrained by the narrowness of the pattern. Some very well known, very high-priced studio microphones have rather poor off-axis response at high frequencies and are simply not a good choice for X/Y stereo recording even though the microphones may sound wonderful when used separately.

Most folks here seem to be using smaller, single-diaphragm condenser microphones, and that choice makes great sense if coincident or near-coincident stereo recording is what you mainly want to do. But one of the first things I noticed when I landed here was that the stock formulas for microphone distances and angles were being dispensed willy-nilly without any regard for the context in which they might be used. Most of what's been posted here (and not just here--on most Internet discussion groups about recording) is looking at only half the picture, and missing the basic relationship that you want to establish with your pattern choice and the geometry of your setup.

Let me suggest a different way of framing the issue. Most stereo recordings are intended for playback on a pair of loudspeakers that are some distance apart, with the listener some distance from the two loudspeakers. So the two loudspeakers and the listener form a triangle--often something fairly close to an equilateral triangle. From the listener's perspective, the various sound sources in the recording should seem as if they come from various angles within the left-to-right spread of the loudspeakers (and various distances, too--the illusion of depth which a good stereo recording can have). In other words, you want the individual acoustic sources to be "localizable"--perceptually you want them to "map" to points in the playback sound field which more or less resemble where they were coming from when the recording was made.

Coincident ("X/Y") recording can be very good at this mapping--much better than, for example, spaced omni ("A/B") recording. But you have to choose a directional pattern and a mike setup which more or less match the angular spread of the original sound sources with the angular spread of the playback environment, and that's why I mentioned the "stereophonic recording angle" earlier (to use Prof. Michael Williams' term for it--his book and/or his AES papers are very, very helpful in understanding all this). Cardioids at 90˚ would be terrific if stereo systems were typically set up with the left and right speakers on opposite (side) walls of the listening room with the listeners placed between them. If you've made X/Y recordings with cardioids at such a narrow angle, I suggest that you try moving your speakers well apart some time as an experiment--then aim them at each other and stand between them. It should greatly improve the stereo effect, since that is the type of playback system which really corresponds to an X/Y recording with cardioids at 90˚.

But if you're recording for a more normal playback environment, then for general-purpose music recording you really need to angle your cardioids distinctly farther apart than 90˚, and/or (as I said) choose a narrower pattern of microphone, and/or put some space or a baffle between the microphones to reduce the stereophonic recording angle of your setup. Otherwise you have to place the microphones so close to the sound sources that you will get huge imbalances, simply because the microphones will be proportionally so much closer to the sound sources near the front and center than they are to anything else.

Does that make some sense, for those of you who may have struggled through this whole rant?

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 10:59:19 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 10:55:19 AM »
That makes a ton of sense and a great post, but I don't think there was a need to write off this microphone like you did in your first post, and suggest it would be best for a business meeting. It was speciifically designed for music/instruments. 
90degrees aint perfect for many situations, but I can point you to several single point stereo mics that have been used succesfully for ambient recording. 

- regards   ;)
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 11:28:07 AM »
windorabug, thank you for the kind words, and your point is well taken. I just get frustrated when marketing considerations force the designers of a technical product to cater to the lowest common denominator of the customers. You can't find a quiet vacuum cleaner in a department store because many people simply won't believe that a quiet vacuum cleaner can be powerful.

Part of why this is so frustrating is that then, other intelligent people look only at the result without realizing the process that led to it, and they assume that "they wouldn't make the product that way if it wasn't the best way to make it--there must have been a technically valid reason for that approach." Some people are even doing that in this thread. And I'm trying to say that yes, many products are made that way--but that is being done for marketing reasons, i.e. because of the general public's ignorance of technical facts for the most part. We don't have to be part of that ignorance.

And I agree that in some applications a very wide stereophonic recording angle can be useful, so for those specific applications it's not so crazy after all. Close miking a wide sound source is one of them; some people here have that kind of special requirement sometimes. No question there.

For that matter I've recorded and/or transcribed hundreds of meetings and seminars over the years, and the truth is, when I saw the product announcement and the low, low price, I seriously considered buying one of these Marshalls for that application myself! I wasn't scoffing at all when I mentioned the possibility. I'm a big advocate of high-quality stereo condenser microphones for documentary-style recording. Recording quality definitely matters even when what you're recording isn't a concert.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 11:49:57 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

stirinthesauce

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 11:40:27 AM »
Once again, it was a pleasure to read your posts, DSatz.  Thanks for your input and knowledge here on our board  :)

-Jon

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 11:49:41 AM »
Once again, it was a pleasure to read your posts, DSatz.  Thanks for your input and knowledge here on our board  :)

-Jon

I fully concur. 
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2007, 01:48:48 PM »
I feel ya DSatz T+
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Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2007, 02:42:11 PM »
Several people have posted that 90˚ is used very often as the angle for X/Y stereo pickup with cardioids, and I can't disagree with that--it is a very common choice. I can even remember that when I bought my first pair of cardioids over 35 years ago, the instruction booklet suggested placing them head-to-head at an angle of 90˚.

Someone even wrote that this angle was "standard." That perception is completely understandable, though in reality there is no such standard. My point is that if there ever were to be such a standard (even if it was only meant as general advice), 90˚ would be a poor choice for it, because of two things which I mentioned before:

[1] This setup results in a stereophonic recording angle of ±90˚

OK, after some coffee I was able to read this, lol.

Now what do you mean by "stereophonic recording angle".  If the mics are at 90 degrees apart, that is the same as +-45 degrees, right?  How do you get +-90 from that?

You brought up a very good point about a pair of cardioids being highly correlated (an equal mix of omni and figure eight, right)?  But another point is the center of the image (where the action is supposed to be) should have the most total power (sum of both channels), otherwise you've got a "hole in the middle" as they say.  That is how they get 110 degrees, or whatever ORTF is, right?

Second question.  If you put the speakers on either side of the room, is that equivalent to listening on headphones?

Those questions aside, I think most of us just want *some* stereo separation.  Unless we are listening to an orchestra or something, we *really* don't know where the sounds are coming from.  Some come from the stage, some come from the PA, and some from the audience, and oh yeah, some from the drunken recordist!

  Richard
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 02:44:02 PM by poorlyconditioned »
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
Pre/ADC: Presonus Firepod & Firebox, DMIC20(x2), UA5(poorly-modded, AD8620+AD8512opamps), VX440
Recorders: Edirol R4, R09, IBM X24 laptop, NJB3(x2), HiMD(x2), MD(1).
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Marshalls USB stereo mic
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2007, 03:50:36 PM »
Hi, poorlyconditioned--those are some great questions. And I understand about the coffee.

> what do you mean by "stereophonic recording angle".  If the mics are at 90 degrees apart, that is the same as +-45 degrees, right?  How do you get +-90 from that?

Ah. No, the "stereophonic recording angle" isn't the angle between the axes of your microphones. It's the angle of real-world direct sound that you can properly depict with a given mike setup.

If you draw a straight line directly forward from your mike stand (or from the center point between your two stands, for widely-spaced mikes), each type of setup can capture a certain angular range and make it seem to appear sonically, in playback, along a virtual arc between your loudspeakers. If someone was playing finger cymbals in the middle of the stage, the impression of the finger cymbals' sound should seem to be in the center of the overall stereo image in playback. But if the player then moves to the left or right (from your POV) while continuing to play, how far (in terms of the angle away from center) can he or she go before your setup loses their position? Every mike setup has its limit. The stereophonic recording angle of a mike setup expresses that limit as "plus or minus n degrees."

The thing is, a bigger "n" isn't always better, because if all the direct sound is arriving at the mikes from an angle less than your setup's "n", then when you play back the recording, it won't fill the "stereo soundstage" between your speakers. Everything will seem to come more or less from the center area between the two speakers, and there won't be a detailed sense of space or location to anything. And that's usually the situation with X/Y cardioids at 90 degrees simply because they are rarely met with direct sound coming in from a total arc of 180 degrees (the plus-or-minus 90 which is the SRA of that type of setup).

What I've been explaining is that for most normal music recording (overall pickup of a group or solo player or whatever), you expect your loudspeakers to reproduce events that basically happened "in front of" the listeners, with some range from right to left being essential, but everything you're hearing is basically the set of events that happened with a distinct "frontal" orientation to them. But if you record with two coincident (i.e. X/Y) cardioids at a 90-degree included angle, you'll pick up a much wider range of angles from the live situation. Something would have to be occurring all the way to either side of the recording position (i.e. not the left or right of the stage if there is one, but at 9:00 or 3:00 from the microphones' "point of view" which is normally some distance back from the stage) in order to reach the left or right limit of the stereo image in your playback system.

No direct sound ever reaches most two-microphone stereo recording setups from 90 degrees to either side or even close to that. As a result, the stereo image for the direct sound, in playback, is bunched up toward the center--it tends to be pretty strongly mono.

Basically what you want to do when choosing a mike setup is to estimate the angle which the direct sound sources are going to represent for your microphones, and then choose a directional pattern, angle and (maybe) spacing which accept that angle of sound properly--not too much more, and certainly not less.

Is that somewhat more clear? It's definitely more words.


> If you put the speakers on either side of the room, is that equivalent to listening on headphones?

It's a lot like headphones, except that both ears will hear the output of both speakers (though filtered and delayed by what's between your ears, i.e. distance and a head of some kind), plus you won't be as likely to trip over the headphone cord as I so often do.

But I think I see your point: If you monitor over headphones while you're setting up, they'll give you the impression that X/Y cardioids at 90 degrees is a great setup. And if you're recording for headphone listening purposes only, that's even kind of true (although full-out binaural is better). It's just that there is a stubborn difference between headphone and loudspeaker listening, and this is where as a location recordist you can really get bitten.

I say this from a great deal of sad first-hand experience: There is no way for a pair of headphones to tell you how a recording will sound over loudspeakers. They can only give you part of the information you need. I really, really don't want that to be true, since I love being able to make great recordings with a kit that fits into a backpack--but believing any impression that you get from headphones about stereo imagery will lead to disappointment more often than not.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:03:03 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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