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Author Topic: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....  (Read 6725 times)

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Offline KLowe

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http://www.soundprofessionals.com/pdf_files/AT853ELE.pdf

Found this PDF while researching AT caps for a DIY stealth project.  Good information that explains pick up angles of caps and distance factors.  Very easy to understand.  Wish I had found this back then.  Still I learned things from it now. 

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Offline DSatz

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This is a nice flyer if you correct for the fact that it says "signal to noise ratio" when it means "the ratio of direct sound to reverberant sound," and "hypercardioid" when it means "supercardioid."

I respect the attempt to simplify things, but not to the point where it creates more confusion.

--best regards
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Offline KLowe

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This is a nice flyer if you correct for the fact that it says "signal to noise ratio" when it means "the ratio of direct sound to reverberant sound," and "hypercardioid" when it means "supercardioid."

I respect the attempt to simplify things, but not to the point where it creates more confusion.

--best regards

Can you expand on hypercard vs supercard?  I don't understand that one.
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Offline DSatz

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Hypercardioid and supercardioid are two different directional patterns, both of which fall on the spectrum between cardioid and figure-8. The hypercardioid is closer to the figure-8; the supercardioid is closer to the cardioid.

Traditionally the definition of a supercardioid is "the first-order pattern with the greatest possible difference in sensitivity between the front and back" (since the back lobe is in reverse polarity, you can say that its signal is like a number with a negative sign--when you add, it subtracts and when you subtract, it adds).

Traditionally the definition of a hypercardioid is "the first-order pattern with the greatest possible suppression of random-incident sound."

Since a microphone doesn't have to exactly fit any of the classic definitions, however, in practice most microphones that are called "hypercardioid" or "supercardioid" are actually somewhere in between the two (that's true for Neumann, Schoeps, AKG, Beyer, MBHO, etc.), and all or nearly all of these are closer to being supercardioids than hypercardioids. The easiest way to tell is to find the null angle, either by ear or by looking at the manufacturer's polar diagram for the mike.

I'm tentatively attaching a picture file which I hope is not a violation of copyright; it's scanned from an Audio Engineering Society publication. If I find out that this is not fair use, I will have to take it down.

Does this tell you what you want to know? One thing to watch out for is that on this board for some reason, some people are very loose with the terms "hyper" and "shotgun" and they use them as if they meant the same thing, which they don't--it's not even a fine distinction, it's just wrong. And on top of that, as I said, some manufacturers print "hypercardioid" on their spec sheets and Web sites, when in fact the microphones are supercardioids (or very nearly so).

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 02:42:29 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Gutbucket

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..Traditionally the definition of a supercardioid is "the first-order pattern with the greatest possible difference in sensitivity between the front and back" (since the back lobe is in reverse polarity, you can say that its signal is like a number with a negative sign--when you add, it subtracts and when you subtract, it adds).

Traditionally the definition of a hypercardioid is "the first-order pattern with the greatest possible suppression of random-incident sound."...

DSatz, I was intrigued to read a specific definition of supercardioid other than "a pattern somewhere between cardioid and hypercardioid".  Yet, from looking at the footnote in the image you posted, it appears to me the definition of a supercardioid should be: "the first-order pattern with the greatest possible difference in sensitivity between the front and random-incident sound".

I believe your definition of a supercardiod as "the first-order pattern with the greatest possible difference in sensitivity between the front and back" (since the back lobe is in reverse polarity, you can say that its signal is like a number with a negative sign--when you add, it subtracts and when you subtract, it adds). actually describes the response of a first order figure-8 pattern.

Just trying to keep these things clear, both for others and myself.  If I am mistaken please let me know and I'll delete this post (so I don't create more confusion). I always enjoy reading and learning from your posts. Thank you again for your contributions to the forum.
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Offline Gutbucket

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DSatz,

I've a question the polar plots you posted got me thinking about.  I've seen second order polar plots (like the two rightmost plots in the image you posted) discussed in the theoretical application of higher-order ambisonics and the like, but is there any way of actually realizing a second order mic pattern in the real world?
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Offline DSatz

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Gutbucket, yes. Second- (and higher-) order patterns can be realized by combining the outputs of more than one capsule in specific ways.

For example, until fairly recently, for a few years AudioTechnica used to make a microphone which used (as I recall) one central capsule with four secondary capsules, all arranged in a square surrounding the main capsule, plus digital signal processing. The result was an highly directional microphone with relatively good off-axis characteristics and a narrow polar pattern that remained consistent down to lower frequencies than any practical shotgun microphone.

At this last AES convention there was a poster session led by a fellow who took two capsules, placed them back to back and did DSP on both their outputs for similar purposes--though his design wasn't finished yet and it wasn't clear how he was going to solve the rather obvious problems with sound coloration that his interim design had.

So yes, these are not like matter/anti-matter engines; they really can be created and used in the real world, at least to some limited extent.

--best regards
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Offline gratefulphish

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This a subject that I truly wished that I understood more scientifically.  Both the AT information and the table posted by DSatz are helpful, but what I have always tried to figure out is how major distances affect the use of various polar patterns.  It just seems intuitive that while ORTF might be useful in a close proximity setting, having your mics at that angle as you move further from the sound source would seem to me to cause more of the sound to be off axis.  OTOH, I could be completely wrong, and the polar patterns could effectively be infinite in size, causing no differential, but it does not seem that way in my practical experience, experimenting with multiple patterns and various distances in the same venue.  I don't know whether my question is clear, but essentially I am trying to determine whether or not the angle should be reduced as you move further away from the source, particularly when the majority of the sound is coming from the PA in a fairly large venue.  Any help would be most appreciated.  TIA
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Offline intpseeker

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Really helpful discussion.

Is it too basic to ask for a definition of first and second order? Also, what polar pattern are the 'wide cards' that are sometimes referred to here?
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Offline KLowe

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Really helpful discussion.

Is it too basic to ask for a definition of first and second order? Also, what polar pattern are the 'wide cards' that are sometimes referred to here?

I think "wide cards" and Sub cards are synonymous.   Which I now see did not make the provide polar pattern chart.

Sub cards are kindof a mix of omni and card
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 10:07:04 PM by KLowe »
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2007, 10:49:23 PM »
Subcards are really much closer to card than omni.  If you go back to KLowe's original link, you can see the polar patterns of the three.  Essentially, the subcard is a wider 170 degree angle, as opposed to the card 120 degree angle, but nowhere near the 360 pickup of an omni.  I like running subcard particularly for onstage recordings, as it seems to pick up the full stage ambience better than card.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2007, 11:55:36 PM »
gratefulphish, you have the right idea. As you move your microphones farther away from the sound source(s) in a reverberant space, you will gradually pick up a greater and greater proportion of reverberation and a decreasing amount of direct sound. That will happen with any type or arrangement of microphones, though, since the sound field itself has different ratios of direct to reverberant energy at different distances.

You're also right that the apparent width of a sound source (or group of sound sources) decreases as you move farther away from it/them. Thus you don't generally need as wide a stereo recording angle (pickup angle) for more distant recording as you need for close-up recording.

However, there's a kind of paradox with microphone pairs, which is that the wider you angle your microphones apart, the narrower the pickup angle (the stereophonic recording angle which they can capture properly) of the pair becomes. So you don't want to reduce the angle between your microphones as you move farther from the sound source(s)--if anything, you may want to increase the angle between your microphones.

That's also why it is nearly always wrong to aim your microphones at the extreme left and right of the sound sources. The pickup angle of a given microphone arrangement never equals the angle between the microphones, other than by coincidence in a few special cases (Blumlein being the best-known one).

--intpseeker, as you may know, classic pressure transducers are essentially omnidirectional, while classic pressure-gradient transducers (velocity pickups) are bidirectional (= a "figure-8" pattern). But a microphone can combine some amount of the one type of response and some of the other, both at the same time, in its basic functioning. There's a mathematical way of expressing this using cosines, which I won't go into here unless someone really wants me to; anyway, a microphone manufacturer can mix the two operating principles in any desired proportion, and the result will be some directional pattern along a continuous spectrum that goes from omni through wide cardioid through cardioid through supercardioid and hypercardioid all the way to figure-8. (That's the spectrum of first-order patterns.)

One of the most interesting "vintage" microphones was the M 49, originally designed in the research laboratory of the German broadcasting organization NWDR and licensed to Neumann (Berlin) for manufacture. It featured a continuously variable polar pattern, along the spectrum that I just told you about. Most other variable-pattern microphones operate only at discrete stopping points along that spectrum, but imagine: If you could substitute a potentiometer for the pattern switch, you could create a setting that was exactly 73.88% pressure response plus 26.12% pressure-gradient response if you wanted to--and it would have a polar (directional) pattern to match that setting, based on the cosine formula that I just said I wouldn't bore you with.

Second-order patterns are mathematically and technically more complex; they involve multiple points of pickup which are combined with fancy circuitry and/or DSP. Very few practical microphones have ever been based on that approach, because it is so difficult for them to have uncolored response across a wide frequency range. The only commercial example I could come up with (in an earlier message today) used DSP, cost something like $3000 as I recall, and has been discontinued by its manufacturer after being introduced via a very interesting paper at an AES convention a few years ago. The remarkable thing about that microphone was that it held its very narrow pattern together across pretty much the entire range of speech frequencies, and that was quite an accomplishment for that type of design.

--"Wide cardioid" is a somewhat informal term; there really is no agreed-upon standard for that name or for its precise definition as a pattern. It really can be any pattern that anyone finds useful that's in between omni and cardioid; gratefulphish is right in implying that it need not be exactly in the middle, and with most manufacturers it isn't. One of the clearest ways to characterize a wide cardioid pattern is by the amount of attenuation it has at 180 degrees for a 1 kHz signal; generally this will fall into the range of 9 to 11 dB or so.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 12:17:57 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

RebelRebel

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2007, 12:53:35 AM »
Really helpful discussion.

Is it too basic to ask for a definition of first and second order? Also, what polar pattern are the 'wide cards' that are sometimes referred to here?
Do be sure to check my "Audio Reference Material" thread and the book titles below(the John Eargle Books(in bold) are very good places to start... He manages to explain things in simple terms, in such a way that the information is very easily digested(for the beginner)while at the same time leaving myriad mind numbing equations and pages galore of highly involved geek-speak for those more educated in the ways of recording audio..   (like Mr. Schoeps er Satz here) The Microphone book is a daily read for me(his other two books are also in regular rotation ). That man is a genius.


be sure to peruse the  the Audio Engineering Society's Internet Archive. (AES)...there is a fee, but it is well worth it. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/ I have learned a lot from snooping around there..
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
The New Stereo Soundbook <<another great comprehensive guide to audio
Sound Recording Handbook
Master Handbook of Acoustics
Behind The Glass
Total Recording
Tape Recorders
Sound recording practice
Professional Microphone Techniques
Principles of Digital Audio
The New Stereo Soundbook
The Microphone book
On Location Recording Techniques
Electroacoustical Reference Handbook
Audio Engineering
Handbook of Recording Engineering
Audio Dictionary
Sound Recording
From tinfoil to Stereo, a history of recording
Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook
Mastering Audio
The Mixing Engineer's Handbook

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 12:59:28 AM by Teddy »

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2007, 01:07:05 AM »

You're also right that the apparent width of a sound source (or group of sound sources) decreases as you move farther away from it/them. Thus you don't generally need as wide a stereo recording angle (pickup angle) for more distant recording as you need for close-up recording.

However, there's a kind of paradox with microphone pairs, which is that the wider you angle your microphones apart, the narrower the pickup angle (the stereophonic recording angle which they can capture properly) of the pair becomes. So you don't want to reduce the angle between your microphones as you move farther from the sound source(s)--if anything, you may want to increase the angle between your microphones.

That's also why it is nearly always wrong to aim your microphones at the extreme left and right of the sound sources. The pickup angle of a given microphone arrangement never equals the angle between the microphones, other than by coincidence in a few special cases (Blumlein being the best-known one).

DSatz,  Thank you for your response, most of which I could actually understand.  What I did not quite understand is the apparant contradiction between the bolded sentences above.  If I am 100' back from the stage, in a large venue, are you suggesting that I increase or decrease the angle of my microphones?  It is hard to tell from your reply, but this is something that I really am trying to learn and understand.  Teddy, thank you for the reminder.  I will be ordering one or more of the books you list.
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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2007, 02:35:43 AM »
Gratephul, this may help too.
Depth and Dimension

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2007, 03:28:05 AM »
If I am 100' back from the stage, in a large venue, are you suggesting that I increase or decrease the angle of my microphones?

There's a thread in here somewhere on Stereophonic Recording Angle.  It should answer your question in detail, and far better than I could before I head off to work.
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Offline intpseeker

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2007, 07:16:31 AM »
Thanks for the explanations and references. I know this discussion may plow old ground, but as a point 'n' shoot taper with forgiving equipment this is great stuff. +T's
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Offline Will_S

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2007, 09:37:04 AM »
Gratephul, this may help too.
Depth and Dimension

This is a great resource for the discussion at hand andt also raises an important point about high frequency rolloff and perceived distance from the source.

So yes, based on recording angle arguments, you should actually use a wider angle between your microphones as you move back in the venue, to maintain the same perceived source width on playback.

But as you do so, high frequency response suffers based on both increased distance from the source and (for most mics) having the direct sound increasingly off axis, where high frequency response can suffer.  So if you just blindly pick a mic setup to match the stereo recording angle to the perceived angle between the PA stacks (or edges of the stage) from your location, you risk a pretty distant sounding recording IMO.

When it comes to amplified performances of the sort many of us tape, it seems to me like there's not a lot of stereo information in the music anyway.  That's why something like the Nutter/point at stacks approach works for a lot of people.  In this method you point your mics just outside the PA, and then since this usually means a reltively narrow angle betwen mics and this a tendency toward a mono recording, you then move the mics further apart to "compensate" by increasing the perceived spaciousness of the recording.  It's not an ideal approach in terms of angular distortion or a "correct" sterero representation of the event, but for the music there's usually not much stereo image to preserve IMO.   Of course if you can get good sound and set up in a spot where the point at stacks approach is equivalent to a traditional stereo setup like 20 cm and 90 degrees, you get the best of both worlds.  Still it's the crowd and room sound that's in accurate stereo rather than the music (in the sense of the position of each instrument being accurately reproduced).

I think it's good to keep in mind that a lot of stereo theory is developed for recording acoustic sources from fairly close up, when you really are trying to reproducd sound as coming from each individual performer in a distinct location in space.  When that's your goal, the information in discussions like these can be incredibly useful.  But for a lot of what a lot of us do, that really isn't the case much of the time.  So keep in mind what the stereo recording angle means for your image of the crowd and room sound, but also keep in mind what it's doing to the frequency balance of the PA sound.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 09:40:27 AM by Will_S »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2007, 10:28:50 AM »
If I am 100' back from the stage, in a large venue, are you suggesting that I increase or decrease the angle of my microphones?

There's a thread in here somewhere on Stereophonic Recording Angle.  It should answer your question in detail, and far better than I could before I head off to work.

The counterintuitive relationship between the actual recording pickup angle vs. the angle between the mics has always been a tough one to get my mind around.

A Michael Williams paper, The Stereophonic Zoom, discusses this relationship and how to use it and vary it to your advantage.  This link is to the version hosted on the Rycote site, I believe it is also available as an AES preprint and supposedly is the first chapter of a book he's working on.  I emailed him a few years back when I came across the article to ask about the book and got word that it was not yet completed.  He basically extends the standard X/Y, ORTF, DIN, NOS conventions to a spectrum of position, pattern, and angle to achive any desired recording angle.

One thing I think about when trying to get a grasp on all this is that trying to reduce the chioce of mic setup to a simple correlation like "recording angle X with pattern Y and spacing Z yields recorded angle Q when played back over a standard stereo triangle", is that there are other aspects of the recording that may be are in my mind more important than a acurate placement of sources across the reproduced soundstage.  The balance between instruments, the overall frequency balance, the direct/diffuse ratio, the sound of the reverberation in the room, reflections off the side walls, the fact that we are often recording sounds emenating primarily through directional FOH cabinets on either side of the stage vs. independant sound sources distributed across a stage, the acuracy of the off-axis response of our mics, etc. all play a role and are usually more important to optimize than making sure the percussionist is reproduced in the correct position, IME.  I'm rambling, but what I'm getting at is, what was most benifitial to me in the paper was not using the technique he describes to achive recording angle X at distance Y from the source, but understanding the relationship between mic angle, pattern and spacing and the resulting stereo recording angle.

Looks like Will_S just addressed alot of the same ideas while I was typing, but I'll post anyway.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2007, 10:42:21 AM »
Here's a DPA Stereo Recording pdf that describes the same relationship.  It's more of a 'how to' guide than a discussion of theory, but look for the graphs in each section that relate mic angle, spacing & pattern with the recorded angle and angular distortion.

[edited to fix link, thanks Will +T]
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 10:56:16 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Will_S

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2007, 10:50:25 AM »
Here's a DPA Stereo Recording pdf that describes the same relationship.  It's more of a 'how to' guide than a discussion of theory, but look for the graphs in each section that relate mic angle, spacing & pattern with the recorded angle and angular distortion.

Nice link, +T.  There is an extra period at the end of the link though (fixed in the quote above).

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2007, 11:05:55 AM »
an AES membership is a must , if only for the access to the vast library of documents alone..

Offline dean

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2007, 11:10:48 AM »
.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2007, 05:39:45 PM »
Thanks DSatz, Teddy, Gutbucket and Will_S.  I will be reading all of the info.  +T to all for your contributions to my and others' education in this area.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2007, 12:13:41 PM »
gratefulphish, sorry to be late in replying, but I had an opera to record last night (yeah, I know, "excuses, excuses").

The confusion, I think, is between two angles which have a cause-and-effect relationship, but aren't the same thing:

(a) the physical angle between the main axes of a pair of microphones, and

(b) the arc of sound from the original venue which they cover (specified as an angle).

The second of these is what Prof. Williams calls the "stereophonic recording angle," and in general, the wider you make (a), the narrower (b) will be and vice versa. That's the big paradox that I referred to earlier.

Most people assume that the wider they spread their microphones, the wider an arc they will cover. It's as obvious as the observation that the Sun revolves around the Earth ... and just as wrong. The arc that you cover with a stereo pair of microphones (coincident or closely spaced directional microphones, anyway) corresponds more or less to the area of overlap between their polar patterns. The wider you spread them apart, the smaller this area of overlap will be, and thus the narrower the angle of stereo coverage will be.

Whenever a direct sound source is picked up exclusively (or nearly so) by just one of the two microphones, it will appear to come from the location of the corresponding loudspeaker during playback. Usually you only want (at most) the very farthest extreme sound sources to be reproduced that way; often it's preferable for not even the most extreme left and right sound sources seem to come from the location of either loudspeaker. You don't want to "advertise" the loudspeaker's exact position, because stereo sound is an illusion and an auditory awareness of the loudspeaker position tends to spoil that illusion.

You want (this being an esthetic convention, i.e. something subjective that is nonetheless advisable because it's the generally accepted paradigm) the direct sound to be spread across "an appropriate amount" of the space between the loudspeakers, depending on how wide the original direct sound source was. A solo piccolo shouldn't fill the entire soundstage width, and actually neither should a solo piano, even if it's one of those huge, long Bösendorfer concert grands. Your choice of the microphone patterns and geometry (angle and distance between mikes, and distance from mikes to sound sources) determines the audibly "apparent" width (what the Germans call the "stereo basis width") that will be produced later over loudspeakers.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 12:19:32 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Easy to understand reference for polar patterns X's distance for Newbs.....
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2007, 03:24:09 PM »
...Most people assume that the wider they spread their microphones, the wider an arc they will cover. It's as obvious as the observation that the Sun revolves around the Earth ... and just as wrong. The arc that you cover with a stereo pair of microphones (coincident or closely spaced directional microphones, anyway) corresponds more or less to the area of overlap between their polar patterns. The wider you spread them apart, the smaller this area of overlap will be, and thus the narrower the angle of stereo coverage will be...

Sometimes it takes a bit of talkin' until the essence is distilled.  There it is.  Well put.
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