Topic: Multiple External Microphones?

[Ozpeter]

Ozpeter, do you think I could record a cello sonata (cello + piano) in a recital hall (or church) with just one stereo pair and get decent results? I've seen videos of professional cellists being professionally recorded and it looks like they have eight or nine microphones! I'm guessing they don't actually use all of these in the final mix, but it still seems like a lot of work to pick up these two instruments' complex sound radiation.  Also, is artificial reverb for classical instruments an automatic no-no?

If you are using just a stereo pair, then you place it accordingly - where it should pick up an authentic balance between the two instruments, and an authentic sound of each.  There is also the matter of the image of the instruments in the context of the acoustic - and here the H2's rear mics can be added to the mix in post production to assist in making the most appropriate use of the natural reverb available (if free of traffic noise etc!).  I'd emphasise that it's important to record 2 x stereo to do that - you want to have freedom of choice afterwards.  In any reasonable DAW you can use an effect such as Voxengo MSED to allow you to manipulate the effective width of the front and rear images if you want, and that gives further control over the overall finished sound.

Adding reverb can help if the natural acoustic is unsympathetic or if you have to record a bit close to maximise the music signal vs traffic noise or whatever.  Nothing wrong with it in tasteful moderation!

However - I have to say that these days I'd tend to record any solo-plus-piano combo using a stereo mic placed slightly too close to the solo element, plus a spot mic (stereo or mono, depending on my mood!) at the tail of the piano.  That allows me to ensure I have the means in post-production to get an ideal balance.  That's working with an R-44.  I do it because I can - it's not an essential way to work.  (How many pairs of ears did our Maker give us, one might ask?).

The H2 however runs about 2 hours on two AA batteries. You may get a bit more with Li-ions. If you use the backlight or the monitor, that cuts into the battery life.

I use rechargeable batteries, 2560mAh, and get way more than that.  For instance, if recording a concert using a suspended H2, it has to be winched up before the audience comes in, and only comes down again still running after 90 or more minutes of music plus an interval.  I can't now recall the running time, but that's because it's not a concern to me in practice.

[cybergaloot]

The H2 however runs about 2 hours on two AA batteries. You may get a bit more with Li-ions. If you use the backlight or the monitor, that cuts into the battery life.

I use rechargeable batteries, 2560mAh, and get way more than that.  For instance, if recording a concert using a suspended H2, it has to be winched up before the audience comes in, and only comes down again still running after 90 or more minutes of music plus an interval.  I can't now recall the running time, but that's because it's not a concern to me in practice.

I believe two hours is the spec in the manual. I've run past that in real life but I wouldn't count on it. Best to stay within a safety margin if you can or you are just gambling. I try to gamble only when I have a backup running. If I wanted to run more than say, 2 1/2 hours I'd use a battery pack.

Also running over two hours runs the risk of hitting that 2GB file size barrier, esp. if you are running 4 channel or a higher quality setting. If you run 44.1/16 or even 44.1/24 you would be safe for over two hours but three hours would be pushing it. I had a Dumpstaphunk get split when they played two hours plus and I was running 44.1/16. I think the H2 manual has a list of how big the file gets for each setting.

[Ozpeter]

The figures are the same for all recorders - http://www.sounddevices.com/calculator/index.html is a handy calculator - 3 hours 23 minutes is the running time for 2GB at 44.1/16 in stereo.  No difference of course for stereo x 2 as it's the file size for each file that's the limit.  As for battery life, well, it's best to run some personal tests with the batteries and recording configuration you're likely to use.

[gossling]

Correct my calculations if they are wrong:
Current Drain (of the above NADY preamp on 9V battery):
Phantom Power Off ............................................................................................24mA no signal,
27mA max signal
Phantom Power On ............................................................................................27mA no signal,
40mA max signal

therefore,

500 mAh (battery capacity) / 24 mAh (preamp consumption) = 20.83 hours
or, with phantom power at max signal:
500 mAh / 40 mAh = 12.5 hours

I'm sure it never works this cleanly, but does this at least give a reasonable estimate of the preamp's battery life?

I'm running a test now on my H2's battery life at 44.1/16 WAV with just the rear microphones.  Will post results when it finishes.  I don't think I'll ever be limited by the 2GB file limit.  I can always just make a new track during intermission or in between sets (though a file splitting feature would be nice...).

Just to clarify, I could fill up my 4GB card with just one 4-channel recording (2GB per file)? If I was recording 4-channel on the H2, the correct storage space for the calculator would be 4GB? And the number of tracks would remain at 2? So at WAV recording settings the limiting factor is almost always going to be the 2GB limit? Except maybe 2-track 44.1/16 (estimated 3 hours and 23 minutes according to the calculator) in which case the H2's battery may die before the 2GB file limit is reached.

Would it be possible to record piano and cello (assuming good acoustics) with just the H2's internal microphones and get good results (as good as that symphony clip you posted)?

Thanks

[Ozpeter]

When recording 2 x stereo you'll fill the card up twice as fast as 1 x stereo but you won't hit the 2GB per file limit any faster.

You might have to tweak the H2 recording in a DAW afterwards for best results (playing around with the stereo image and a bit of eq to taste) but for the simplicity of operation and the quality of the outcome at the price, especially in 4 channel mode, IMHO it's hard to beat.  For acoustic music you've just got to set it to "M100", position it, press the red button twice, and there you are.

Well, OK, you've got to turn it on first.

If you used an R-44 with some first class mics, you would get a better result of course, but it would set you back rather more!

For best results with the H2, don't ever use any of the bells and whistles - eg limiting or compression - they're in there for marketing rather than usefulness, unless you've really got no way to use a PC on the result afterwards.

[cybergaloot]

For best results with the H2, don't ever use any of the bells and whistles - eg limiting or compression - they're in there for marketing rather than usefulness, unless you've really got no way to use a PC on the result afterwards.

Oz is right about the bells and whistles, and absolutely do NOT use the Automatic Gain Control. That might be ok for recording a lecture or something but it flat out sucks for music. If you want compression, apply it in your post processing. I generally don't though. I do as little as possible to the recording in post. Usually just normalizing or amplifying if needed.

[Church-Audio]

Holy complicated.... Get a good pair of stereo mics and a RO9HR and start from there. Don't make this more complicated then it needs to be.

Chris

[gossling]

Results from battery test:
44.16/16 got 7.7 or 7 hours and 42 minutes of battery life (had to dump files off of 4GB card to run the whole test).  This includes three power-ups and power-downs.  I used 2,000 mAh NiMH AA batteries.  Bottom line, if you're recording wav with a 4GB card, your limiting factor is the 4GB, not the battery life.   

The problem I have with the stereo microphones -> R-09HR is that none of the microphones I am planning to use would actually work with the recorder.  I will be using almost exclusively studio condensers which require phantom power.  The only way to use these condensers are either with the MT2, which isn't very stable, or with an external preamp -> whatever other handheld recorder.   If I'm using an external preamp, I'll be going line-in, negating the importance of a good mic in.  So I might as well go with the H2 which has superior internal microphones and is much less expensive.  If my logic is faulty, let me know.

[Ozpeter]

Holy complicated.... Get a good pair of stereo mics and a RO9HR and start from there. Don't make this more complicated then it needs to be.

I must say I don't follow that at all.  You'd need a mixer to connect any pair of stereo mics to the R09HR as it isn't a four channel device,  so instead of a single hand held device needing no setup, you'd be connecting up two stereo mics to a mixer (and probably needing a stand for them), adjusting the mixer, connecting mixer to recorder, adjusting recorder, and generally considerably increasing cost and complexity.

[gossling]

^^I'm guessing he meant one stereo microphone (or a pair of mono microphones).

[Church-Audio]

^^I'm guessing he meant one stereo microphone (or a pair of mono microphones).

That's exactly what I was saying...If your going for a live sound two mics will be just fine if you want to make it more complicated then it needs to be by all means add lots of mics.