Topic: Sony PCM-M10 vs Edirol R-09HR

[chrise]

The value from the pot could be stored and the pot could be switched out.

How exactly ?

This is not software !

I guess you'd need some fancy electronics in the analog signal path, which would likely either degrade the signal, or be expensive.

[M]

This could be accomplished with a microcontroller.

The signal does not need be degraded.

Not complicated at all if that is your thing.

Sony likely concluded that it was too expensive and that is why it was not implemented.  But the controller likely would have cost them much less than $1 a unit.
 

[kleiner Rainer]

Hi all,

if the M10 is built like the D50, the gain pot sets the gain of the mic preamp which is the way I prefer since it gives you a wider range of gain without the risk of clipping. To "fix" the gain would require to switch out the pot and replace it with a specific resistance *for the selected gain*, since the pot is in the signal path.

This means integrated switching ICs to do the switching and a digital pot with its limitations (THD and noise, granularity of resistance, coupling of digital noise into a high gain path). As a designer of analog circuits by profession *I* prefer the solution Sony selected, and I am fully aware of the advantages and disadvantages of the possible solutions.

I am amused about those who throw a microcontroller at every problem in an essentially analog device.

"It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." - Abraham Maslow

Greetings,

Rainer

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I am amused about those who throw a microcontroller at every problem in an essentially analog device.

That is hardly an analog device...  And the 7xx recorders do just fine without putting the gain pots into the signal path

I don't think anyone knows for certain how the pot on the m10 is implemented?  In any case, whenever there is a pot that impacts the signal path, I am concerned about the longevity and when (not usually if) it starts making noise.  That is especially true of small pots.  That is one of the reasons I prefer step based gain controls.  Good pots (and step controls) tend to be expensive.

I'd like to know more about the specific pot that sony uses in the m10.

[kleiner Rainer]

Freelunch,

IIRC the SD7xx is about 10 times the price of the M10, and it is not exactly pocket-sized. But even the 7xx will have some way to change the input level, and this will be in the signal path!

I know of two fundamental ways to handle that:

1) preamp with variable gain into an A/D converter with fixed gain.
This is the preferred solution for devices running with low power supply voltage for the audio stages. I suspect that the M10 uses this approach, since the D50 uses that, too. And as a designer, I also tend to recycle proven circuit blocks. My old Uher Report 4400 reel to reel recorder also uses this approach (it is 6V powered, no DC/DC-converter back then).

2) preamp with fixed or switchable gain followed by an A/D converter with built in PGA (programmable gain amp).
This requires a preamp with a high supply voltage to get the necessary headroom. This is the way how it was done in the Sony TCD-5M, that mic preamp runs at +5V/-7V. The old WM-D6C uses a similar approach, also with a rather high voltage for the mic preamp. The SD 7xx uses a bigger rechargeable battery and has phantom power, so a preamp with high supply voltage should be no problem at all.

The problems if you use solution 2) with low supply voltages can be readily observed on the Zoom H2: there are settings where the preamp clips long before the A/D converter, even when you turn down the gain. It uses an A/D from TI with built-in PGA, that also does AGC, limiter and compressor in the PGA (there is a TI application note covering that). Personally, I do not like the stepped gain of most portable recorders, and I am not alone in that regard.

There are pots that are of good quality, even in the consumer market. I personally would prefer low-noise conductive plastic ones (Vishay), but they are expensive. At least in my old Sony recorders (the above mentioned TCD-5M and WM-D6C), the gain pots still work as new (which is not true for tape heads and drive...). If the PCM M10 develops scratchy pots after 15 to 20 years, I would not complain. I still remember what I paid for the two tape decks (and the Marantz CP430...). Compared to that, the M10 is a real bargain.



Greetings,

Rainer

[Fonky]

With the M10, I thought the metering is better than the R09HR and all lights can be turned off for stealth just like the R09HR. It is slimmer than the R09HR which makes it easier to get into shows and kind of looks like a cell phone if you act like your talking into it. It has built in memory but also takes microSD cards or Memory Sticks. No noise if you have to adjust gain (which is a big flaw with the R09HR), but I keep it at unity (6) anyway. Battery life is incredible - like 24 hours at 24/48 going line in. It has 5 seconds of pre-record like the D50. The hold button is easy to use, but doesn't lock out the gain knob which is the only flaw IMO.

Almost ready to order my R-09hr and I find this. I've been trying to weigh up the pros & cons of the two decks. I didn't know the R-09hr makes a sound when you adjust levels? Also, as far as I can find out, the red recording light flashes on more or less whenever you touch the R-09hr (even if only for a couple of seconds). So it's a 'black tape up' job as I'd be stealthing.

I've  had my mind set on the Edirol for a while but after being advised to take a look at the Sony I'm starting to wonder?

[ashevillain]

I didn't know the R-09hr makes a sound when you adjust levels?

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I usually adjust the gain on my preamp but I have done it on the recorder too...never experienced this problem on either the original R-09 or the R-09HR.

[Fonky]

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I usually adjust the gain on my preamp but I have done it on the recorder too...never experienced this problem on either the original R-09 or the R-09HR.

Interesting, I thought I'd read about it somewhere else too? So it's just the 'evil red light' and the battery time making me think now.

[Belexes]

I had the HR and went with getting M10. Battery life is amazing and I had read about tests in regards to there being noise when the gain is changed.

[rastasean]

I didn't know the R-09hr makes a sound when you adjust levels?

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I usually adjust the gain on my preamp but I have done it on the recorder too...never experienced this problem on either the original R-09 or the R-09HR.

I wasn't a believer of the noise but it is there on mine. It is a VERY VERY faint clicking noise and I really only hear it when listening to it. I honestly consider it nothing to worry about.
Say someone has a UA5 with some nice mics plugged into it and during the first song/intro if you listen closely you can hear the gain on L channel increase and then the R and the L and then the R. Its pretty much the same on the 09hr. Most of the time you would cut the very beginning of a recording off since its not completely necessary...at least I would.
The clicking noise will obviously be more noticeable if you're recording something super quiet.

The best way to prevent this or to minimize this is to set the 09hr input at no higher than 55 and adjust the gain on your pre-amp like the 9100. The 9100 has a lot of gain so don't be afraid to use it. I tend to run mine WAY to conserative but I'm learning to crank it a little higher and I can reduce in post later.

[rastasean]

I had the HR and went with getting M10. Battery life is amazing and I had read about tests in regards to there being noise when the gain is changed.

I can vouch for the AMAZING battery life on the m10.

I used my 09hr to record a band which the set was only 1 1/2 to 1h 45m long and the battery meter on the 09hr has dropped just a little, little bit but compare that the the m10 which I have had on many times adding up to over 2 hours and it has the full battery meter.

[earmonger]

I also like the display and the general feel of the M10 better than the R09 (I haven't had an HR). 

The internal mics are genuinely musical, much better than the R09, even if they don't have full bass response (IIRC, the cutoff is 80Hz), which turned out very helpful when I lost a channel of my stealth mics.

 And the long long long battery life changes the whole recording experience. If you see three bars, or even two bars, you just don't have to worry at all about getting through the show. I did an entire rock festival, 3 x 12-hour days, on a pair of Duracells.

[fmaderjr]

Mine doesn't make noise when the gain is adjusted. Perhaps someone had a faulty unit?

I bet you're mistaken about that unless you've made a test at home specifically looking for the noise. I once posted that my R-09 didn't make such a noise, but someone called me out on it and when I made a more careful test I heard it.

My HR make a horrible noise while being adjusted (the R-09 is not nearly as bad) and others have reported the same thing. That said, not a big proglem for me. I also generally adjust gain with my pre and if I did need to adjust the HR I would do it between songs and edit the noise out.

[relentlesscactus]

Regarding the hold switch, the inability to cut out the gain knob makes me a little nervous in field (bootleg concert) situations, but I'll take your word for it that it is a stiff knob.

However, I have another question, is their a bypass method for the light?  It's not in the manual, but on the Microtrak, you can hit the playback volume control switch and the light comes on in hold mode, while with the Tascam you click the speaker switch.  This allows one to see the screen in the dark without the risk of accidently stopping the recording in a percarious recording situation.  Does anyone have a unit that could try this out?  The Sony looks perfect for me, but without the ability to light the display in the dark (about the only place I record), that is a deal breaker!

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[fmaderjr]

Regarding the hold switch, the inability to cut out the gain knob makes me a little nervous in field (bootleg concert) situations, but I'll take your word for it that it is a stiff knob.

However, I have another question, is their a bypass method for the light?  It's not in the manual, but on the Microtrak, you can hit the playback volume control switch and the light comes on in hold mode, while with the Tascam you click the speaker switch.  This allows one to see the screen in the dark without the risk of accidently stopping the recording in a percarious recording situation.  Does anyone have a unit that could try this out?  The Sony looks perfect for me, but without the ability to light the display in the dark (about the only place I record), that is a deal breaker!

If backlight is set to always off, there's no bypass. If set to 10 seconds (off in 10 seconds) you can turn it on for 10 seconds by hitting the display button (which is easy to find) and probably a number of other buttons as well (including the volume buttons, but they are hard to find in the dark). Even if on hold, the light will come on when you hit the display button. A flashing hold indicator shows up for a couple seconds before you can check levels, etc. but at least you don't need to  worry about accidentally stopping the recording.