Topic: Korg MR-1 and MR-1000 - News DSD Recorders announced at AES

[poorlyconditioned]

Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?

Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording?  Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz?  I just don't get it.

Thanks,
  Richard

[muj]

Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?

Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording?  Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz?  I just don't get it.

Thanks,
  Richard

impulse response.



much much better than the pcm stuff.

[mandoman]

Those wondering about software, this is from the press release:

"Korg's included AudioGate? software (Mac® and PC) can convert 1-bit recordings
into WAV and AIFF formats at various bit-rates (and vice versa) and offers real-
time conversion/playback of 1-bit files. The software can also perform essential
 functions like removing DC offset, gain control, and fade in/out. Users can
easily transfer data from the internal hard drive to a computer via high speed USB
2.0 connection."

So there is at least some level of editing with the included software, but
appears to be limited at this time. I assume if you are distributing this as redbook
audio, you'd convert to pcm first and edit in your favorite daw. Need more
editing feature? Maybe we need to voice our opinions to the developers?

As for dsd->sacd, that is a valid point if you want to hear playback at as high
a quality possible and for distribution. For now, I guess we'd be left with play
back from the unit itself. Sort of akin to the pre cd-r days of DAT when we
played and traded right off the dat. These files are going to be large in DSD, but
not so large as to fit on a dvd5 for trades and archive - not to mention that we've
got affordable HD-DVD and blueray right 'round the corner.

As far as transfers goes, it uses USB 2.0. I assume it's bi-directional, so you
can dump to the computer, edit, dump back to the dsd. Would be super nice if you
can play dsd files from a computer through the USB connection directly on the
unit without dumping back and forth.  This is almost an essential feature for our
purposes.

I imagine if the unit is successful, there will be a market for more affordable
prosumer software and hardware. Time will tell.

In the meantime, I still see this as a very sexy and affordable 24bit/192khz compact
recorder with a 20gb hardrive.

Mandoman

[blastroknow]

Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?

Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording?  Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz?  I just don't get it.

Thanks,
  Richard

Less filtering or some mumbo jumbo for the technical reasons {I'm sure somebody else could say with authority - I've read the reasons but I would just be regurgitating them here} but I know I heard a very high end Linn system set up that had a DSD source and a 24/96k source hooked up to it and the DSD was a remarkably fresh and a different sound compared to the PCM.  Like gauze lifted or putting your glasses on - a different sound from PCM audio.  Hit a hi-fi shop or a trade show and check it out.

[prof_peabody]

I suggest reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital

and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-density_modulation

If you can remember your high school math, you should be able to work out the details in a short time.  It is not easy to simplify it beyond the level of the second link.  I should point out that it is difficult to directly compare the resolution of both techniques, and there has been a lot of arm waving by various sound engineers/scientists.  Resolution is actually a complicated topic for any A/D system.  I wrestle with these issues frequently (pun intended) at work.

[RebelRebel]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg770219#msg770219

http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf

Can someone explain what the DSD format really is?

Why should this be better than 24 bit, 44 or 48kHz recording?  Assuming we don't hear over 20kHz, why should we need to sample any more than 40kHz?  I just don't get it.

Thanks,
  Richard

[macdaddy]

if i read what m0ke asks, he is asking can you take the raw dsd written in the tascam and play it on a genex, or vice versa... all of these would load on the sonoma desk. etc...

i think a software player is a ways away, unfortunately.

i also think it would be a long time before we see the software sacd burning, unfortunately...

but i would love to see it...

and, teddy, arent there a number of uber-expensive converters available now...

[prof_peabody]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg770219#msg770219

http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf

BIG +T on that.  I don't have time to discuss unfortunately.  I have read that the high frequency resolution of DSD may be less than high end PCM (24 bit 192 khz).  I lean towards DSD because in theory it is a step closer to digital analog from PCM.

[RebelRebel]

if i read what m0ke asks, he is asking can you take the raw dsd written in the tascam and play it on a genex, or vice versa... all of these would load on the sonoma desk. etc...

Yes, as far as I know...the raw DSDFF or whatever files should be able to be read on all of the recorders.

i think a software player is a ways away, unfortunately.i also think it would be a long time before we see the software sacd burning, unfortunately...

I dont think itll ever happen, personally. just a guess.

and, teddy, arent there a number of uber-expensive converters available now?

Yes, one of which I have. <<<mine is just like this, MKII..(The version is MKIV now)

Mytek has an 8ch DSD/PCM converter

DcS is another DSD converter company

EMM labs, founded by ed meitner, (who designed the 1st gens that I have

Prism is another big player

Digital Audio denmark is a new one..

Grimm Audio, NL

[RebelRebel]

the resolution isnt less.,but  some power amps allegedly choke on the high frequency noise-shape noise spectrum and can cause great recordings to not sound os hot..

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=58384.msg770219#msg770219

http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf

BIG +T on that.  I don't have time to discuss unfortunately.  I have read that the high frequency resolution of DSD may be less than high end PCM (24 bit 192 khz).  I lean towards DSD because in theory it is a step closer to digital analog from PCM.

[macdaddy]

meitner - those are the ones i have seen around...

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I like my r09 a LOT but, so far, the A/D does not seem to capture cymbal detail and decay as well as the 722.

So the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD on the small recorder could be moot if the signal path and A/D can't capture the detail.  Specs aside, how GOOD will it sound.

[manamana]

I like my r09 a LOT but, so far, the A/D does not seem to capture cymbal detail and decay as well as the 722.

So the 24/96, 24/192 and DSD on the small recorder could be moot if the signal path and A/D can't capture the detail.  Specs aside, how GOOD will it sound.

my thinking as well. sounds like they're pretty good, though. I was wanting a 702, and just the other day I was wondering when the next gen stuff would be coming around. I guess I'll wait, finances depending. a huge christmas bounus might make it tough to wait, especially since dec is a three paycheck month anyway.

I don't really care about SACD authoring, I just need a computer interface and software (a foobar plugin ideally) that can play the files. Those in the know - How far do you think we are from having that? I would think that RME or similar company  might be introducing something in the next year or two.

[Jammin72]

This is wonderful news.  DSD really is that much better!  Am I misreading what the press blurbs are saying but don't the units come with software that will indeed playback the DSD encoded files?  Store them on drives, playback through the PC until the software/hardware becomes available to create an SACD.  The sound staging will be tremendous if thy have the front end worked out to any real level of quality.

Now you'll really have to figure out a way to get thousands of watts and big drivers in the house to appreciate it! 

[RebelRebel]

This is wonderful news.  DSD really is that much better!  Am I misreading what the press blurbs are saying but don't the units come with software that will indeed playback the DSD encoded files?  Store them on drives, playback through the PC until the software/hardware becomes available to create an SACD.  The sound staging will be tremendous if thy have the front end worked out to any real level of quality.

Now you'll really have to figure out a way to get thousands of watts and big drivers in the house to appreciate it! 

Yes it is..(well, than redbook...it depends if we are talking about DVD-A)..and it looks as if the software will indeed play em back..

so if you have a good Computer playback setup...there you go.