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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: sparko on October 28, 2012, 08:01:45 AM
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I'm totally new to taping and I already read a lot thru the boards here. Since English is not my native language, some posts are more confusing than clearing things up.
I do have a Tascam DR-07 MkII Recorder and recently recorded my first show with internal mics. For the very first try I'm very pleased with the result as I expected the recorder mics to do a worse job than they actually did.
So far what I found out for myself is, in order to tape (mostly) rock music (which includes classic, indie, alternative, so in general the basic guitar bass and drums) in both small and big venues, I should opt for cardioid mics (to focus on the music rather than getting too much chatter). My budget isn't very big and so I came across the Church CA-11 or CA-14 (what's the actual difference / advantage?) and I also should tell, that I'd like to go with a setup in a more stealthy way. This is not because of the musicians don't wanna get taped, but I'm rather a lazy person and don't like to carry around too much gear while seeing a show from the audience, which especially in small venues often ends up right in the middle of GA - so any stealthy hat setup is preferred. Additionally, if I do have access to other spots, I mostly carry around a DSLR and do my job, so I need my hands free for that and wanna avoid too much EQ to setup.
So looking at the price range the CA-11/14 are at, are there any other cardioid mics I should look at? What else do I need to get? I know I need power for the mics, but I'm not sure whether to grab a simple battery box or a preamp? What do I need to know / think about for choosing battery box or preamp?
Any other suggestions for a newbie? Something I totally forgot to include in my thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
Daniela
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The Church mics are generally considered one of the best deals around for the money. The CA-14s are a bit better and big larger than the CA-11s. You can get the CA-11s with interchangeable caps so you can run omnis or cardoids. A pre-amp will give you best results (might as well stick with the CA 9100.9200,Ugly), although at least a battery box is pretty much a necessity if you are going to tape anything loud.
good luck
scot
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Welcome to the world of taping, glad you have the interest to record shows.
I have the exact same tascam recorder. I started with (and still use) a pair of Church Audio CA14 mics. I have both the cardioid and omni pattern microphones. I use the cardioids mostly but have recorded a few things with the omnis. I am sure I am simplifying things, but basically the cardioids are more focused on what is directly in front of the mics and don't capture as much of the 360 degree ambiance. This is good to lower the talking or crowd noise if that is an issue. The Omnis tend to pick up more of everything around which seems a more natural sound. I have been very happy with both.
Chris Church hand makes the mics in Canada and I have had no issues. He build them himself though so make sure to understand there is a significant lead time between order and delivery. In my opinion the wait is worth it. The cost and performance have made me very happy since I started using them a year ago.
I use a Church battery box. Very simple little box that uses a 9v battery to help power the mics for loud concerts and recording situations. I just got a preamp and I will start using that now, as by all accounts it will improve the overall sound. For my recordings so far I have just used the Church mics > battery box > Tascam dr07mkii, then set levels on the Tascam. I record in 24 bit/48Khz, and then adjust in post processing by boosting volumn, normalizing, etc before transferring to FLAC.
The setup I have (and you're looking at) is low cost, and provides great quality in my opinion. Very easy to get into venues, and easy to use as well.
Have fun!!
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Another option in that price- and size-range are the Audio Technica AT853's. They are pretty dope. I was lucky enough to grab a mint pair in the Yard Sale (YS) on this site for cheap, I believe $130 US. They were modified by Darktrain with the 4.7k mod and terminated to a stereo mini-plug. They only need Plug-in-Power (PIP), not Phantom Power.
You can view a picture of them here.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=156090.msg1971696
I believe Sound Professionals also sells a pair. I believe they are the SP-CMC-4U's below.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U
Some people prefer the Church Audio mics, some the Audio-Technica's. I suppose it's a matter of taste. I'd listen to some recordings on the Live Music Archive (LMA) and see if you have a personal preference to the sound and feel of one over the other.
Also, Jon (Stoppable) at Naiant makes some killer on-the-cheap omni's that sound good as hell in my opinion. You can read up on those below.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157974.msg1991324
Here's the link. Jon also make Littleboxes and Tinyboxs, a lot of people around here swear by them. I know I love my Littlebox.
http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphones.html
Other than that, I'd check out the YS every now and then and see if you can't get something on-the-cheap. All of the mics I have, I've gotten through the YS and couldn't be happier.
HTH
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I use a Church battery box. Very simple little box that uses a 9v battery to help power the mics for loud concerts and recording situations. I just got a preamp and I will start using that now, as by all accounts it will improve the overall sound. For my recordings so far I have just used the Church mics > battery box > Tascam dr07mkii, then set levels on the Tascam. I record in 24 bit/48Khz, and then adjust in post processing by boosting volumn, normalizing, etc before transferring to FLAC.
Really?
I think I've owned pretty much everything Chris has made over the past three years (except for the CA-11's) and think a few other have stated as much as well but I'll repeat what I know to be a fact: any of these small preamps will NOT IMPROVE the sound; it just makes it "easier" to supply the right amount of juice to the mics to record at the level your deck is set at. A battery box will be more than sufficient for most loud rock/pop shows. Depending on the preamps in the recorder (I use a Sony PCM-M10), you might not need a separate preamp as the deck has a pretty clean one in it. Small preamps are more susceptible to cell phone interference/hits as well (I've had this happen many times during great captures). I can't recall my mics getting a "hit" with a batter box - ever. In fact, I've gone "backwards" in a way and only run with a battery box because there is very little that can "go wrong" when I'm recording a show. An M10, battery box and my B3 mics are probably the smallest "decent sounding" low-profile rig out there.
But back to the OP's question...
I can't speak for the Tascam deck in question but I think the preamp on it isn't that noisy from the line-in perspective (but someone better versed can correct me on this). I came from an (Edirol) Roland R-09 which was pretty noisy but more than tolerable on line-in and I'm sure technology has grown in leaps and bounds since 2008. :)
For mics, I've run both CA-14 cards and omnis. While the CA-14's are quite "stealthable" they are a little bigger than the CA-11's. I've heard recordings done with the CA-11 and CA-14 and they're not "that far" apart. The CA-11's surely don't get enough credit around here and having the ability to change caps on the fly is always a bonus. There may be times where you'll want to run omnis vs. cards and it saves you having to bring two sets of mics with you.
The AT853's are similarly sized to the CA-14's. They're good mics as well and, depending on the model, allow you to switch caps (which are becoming harder to find).
As Chris builds everything by hand, expect a 4-to-6 week lead time. Contact him first to find out what the build time is because sometimes it'll be considerably less depending on what he's building and when. I use his CA-Ugly Battery Box and it's a great little device.
That's my $0.02.
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Thanks a lot for all your tips and info!
I already stumbled across the delivery time fact and actually that's not that much of a problem for me as I live in Europe and would need to get them to a friend in USA, to save me some shipping cost. So it takes time one way or the other ;)
Of course I will listen thru several tapes and shows to see, what mic setups sound nicer to my ears, which surely is a very personal choice I suppose. I personally prefer less crowd noise (still ask myself why people spend money on tickets and then chat nonstop for two hours....) and more music, that's why I guess, cards are the better fit for me. Experimenting with omnis might become of interest somewhat later.
Thanks to adrianf, stating that a preamp won't make the sound actually _better_. I don't have a problem playing around finding the right setup and afterwards postprocessing the recording a bit more, which I do anyway. So if a battery box does the job for less cost in first place that'd be great. I'm just starting and don't wanna spend too much at once.
Thanks also to chinariderstl for providing all the links, I will surely check out your suggestions.
Thanks again,
Daniela
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Hey Daniela,
Great to be of any help when I can. I've been recording shows since July '92 and have run all sorts of equipment along the way. A battery box is more than sufficient for what you'll be using it for. A few people in these parts have also told me that running a "smaller" setup means there's less of a chance of things going wrong. You know your battery box isn't working because you'll get no levels via line-in. :)
The CA-14's, CA-11's and AT853's are all "good mics." I'd strongly suggest looking at the CA-11's as they're more "budget friendly" and having swappable caps might also be of use. I'd also consider posting an In Search Of (ISO) for the CA-11's in the Yard because someone might have a pair sitting around that are underutilized.
All the best.
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I'll second the AT853's. I've been using them for about 6 years now, and they've treated me well in a variety of situations. Church mics are good too, but I generally prefer the sound of the AT's. You'd probably want to get the 3-wire or 4.7k or w/e mod done so they can handle higher SPL, though.
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Small preamps are more susceptible to cell phone interference/hits as well (I've had this happen many times during great captures). I can't recall my mics getting a "hit" with a batter box - ever. In fact, I've gone "backwards" in a way and only run with a battery box because there is very little that can "go wrong" when I'm recording a show. An M10, battery box and my B3 mics are probably the smallest "decent sounding" low-profile rig out there.
Going off-topic here, sorry, but is this really true? I have had several cellphone hits using a small preamp as well, but I don't know where the weak link in my system was. Why does a BB prevent the interference? If this is true then I will go back to the BB I already have and ditch the preamp!
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I don't know what the others here think but everytime I listen to recordings with the CA-14 and CA-11 (especially the cardioids) plugged into a preamp (doesnt matter if 9000, 9100 or 9200) into Flash recorders the sound gets weird to me. Also this does not seem to happen when the omni caps are being used. I've heard several recordings of the CA-11 / CA-14 (cardioids and omnis) either with the CA Battery Box or straight into Flash recorders (iRivers, Edirol R09 / R05 and Sony's PCM-M10) and it sounded very close to some of the Soundprofessionals. Anybody here has the same impression or even has an explanation for this? I'd love to know.
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I don't know what the others here think but everytime I listen to recordings with the CA-14 and CA-11 (especially the cardioids) plugged into a preamp (doesnt matter if 9000, 9100 or 9200) into Flash recorders the sound gets weird to me. Also this does not seem to happen when the omni caps are being used. I've heard several recordings of the CA-11 / CA-14 (cardioids and omnis) either with the CA Battery Box or straight into Flash recorders (iRivers, Edirol R09 / R05 and Sony's PCM-M10) and it sounded very close to some of the Soundprofessionals. Anybody here has the same impression or even has an explanation for this? I'd love to know.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.
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That would be what I was already thinking about, just need someone to confirm it. Thanks for the info! :)
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Im grabbing a Battery Box AND A CA 9100. Both have their own uses :)
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.
It depends on what you mean by a "battery box".
If you mean a battery powered 48V phantom power supply - the you are correct.
But your mic. will still have to go through a pre-amp. of some sort, even if it's just the one in the recorder - and that will have its own colouration.
A high quality external pre. would likely add less than the internal one.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.
It depends on what you mean by a "battery box".
If you mean a battery powered 48V phantom power supply - the you are correct.
But your mic. will still have to go through a pre-amp. of some sort, even if it's just the one in the recorder - and that will have its own colouration.
A high quality external pre. would likely add less than the internal one.
Honestly, from all recordings I've heard, the iRiver seems to do a much better colouration job than the preamps, that's just my impression after hearing many recordings with different mics (SP-CMC-4U, SP-CMC-8, CA-11, CA-14 and a few others). Would love to know what others think.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.
It depends on what you mean by a "battery box".
If you mean a battery powered 48V phantom power supply - the you are correct.
But your mic. will still have to go through a pre-amp. of some sort, even if it's just the one in the recorder - and that will have its own colouration.
A high quality external pre. would likely add less than the internal one.
Honestly, from all recordings I've heard, the iRiver seems to do a much better colouration job than the preamps, that's just my impression after hearing many recordings with different mics (SP-CMC-4U, SP-CMC-8, CA-11, CA-14 and a few others). Would love to know what others think.
My 9200 preamp for example is FLAT from 20hz to 60khz. That's how it is designed so that it does not alter the sound. The iriver imo will alter the sound of your recording way more then one of my preamps ever will.
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I think the combination of iRiver and one of your preamps does not work well because they both have their own kind of altering the sound, and this combined equals in a (for my taste) weird sound. Could this be the case? Please correct me if not.
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Daniela,
Welcome! I'd just like to add that since you've mentioned that you 1) will generally be on the GA floor 2) want to be low profile and 3) take photos and move around a bit, you should seriously consider some miniature omnis. On the floor, you'll generally be where the sound is loudest, so any crowd noise will be overwhelmed by the amplification of the PA. Cardioids are more directional, but if the crowd in front of you is rowdy, you will still get them on your recording. Since you want to be able to move around a bit, omnis will be much more forgiving of the movement. Since cardioids are directional, as you move, you will be constantly changing where your mics are pointed. This will result in a "phasing" of the recording as one mic or the other changes direction and "hears" a different angle of the PA. The Church omnis (11 or 14) are more than fine for this application, but for a bit more money you could go to the Countryman B3s and get a far superior result. Paired with a battery box, or a Church preamp, you would make great tapes that you'd be proud of. I have no idea what sckofelng is talking about with saying the Church preamps sound weird, they are incredibly neutral sounding, and don't color the sound at all IMHO. My best guess is that he is used to hearing recordings that are colored, and hence finds the truly neutral sound as weird. My low profile rig is B3>CA-ugly>M10 and if I had to sell all of my gear for financial reasons but wanted to keeping taping, this is the rig I would keep.
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You must be a fan of omni mics :) I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.
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You must be a fan of omni mics :) I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.
None taken nor any intended. Yes, I am a preacher at the church of the omni (pun intended!). IMHO too many tapers are afraid of omnis despite the fact that they're the king of mics. Figure 8s and omnis are the most natural and pure sounding mics out there, and the "crowd avoidance" ability of cardioids is routinely overstated in these parts. ;D
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You must be a fan of omni mics :) I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.
None taken nor any intended. Yes, I am a preacher at the church of the omni (pun intended!). IMHO too many tapers are afraid of omnis despite the fact that they're the king of mics. Figure 8s and omnis are the most natural and pure sounding mics out there, and the "crowd avoidance" ability of cardioids is routinely overstated in these parts. ;D
I'll let Bryon continue to be the advocate for all things omni, but the other thing I would add to this is that the "natural" sound of omnis in the micro/stealth mic category is in many cases vastly superior to that of similar micro cardiods. A tiny DPA, Nevaton or Countryman omni mic can easily sound as good as a $3500 pair of Schoeps if used right. The same cannot be said, in general, of micro cardiods (lightning can strike once or twice, but in general this is true). As a matter of engineering, it's apparently much easier to make an HQ mic that is tiny if it's an omni than if it's a cardiod.
Chris' small cardiod mics are among the best in their category, but his small omnis, if you can get up close on GA floors especially, are really going to sound nice. I just ran some onstage as a backup with my Schoeps MK5 (which also have an omni setting) and they held their own. Similarly, give a listen to this Kimock show: http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Steve+Kimock%22+AND+date%3A2011-11-04%2A (http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Steve+Kimock%22+AND+date%3A2011-11-04%2A)
One guy had CA-14 omnis onstage. I had a pair of $1500 AKGs on the stack. Another guy had a $6500 pair of Neumanns running as hypers another 10 or so ft behind me. See what you think.
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You must be a fan of omni mics :) I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.
None taken nor any intended. Yes, I am a preacher at the church of the omni (pun intended!). IMHO too many tapers are afraid of omnis despite the fact that they're the king of mics. Figure 8s and omnis are the most natural and pure sounding mics out there, and the "crowd avoidance" ability of cardioids is routinely overstated in these parts. ;D
I'll let Bryon continue to be the advocate for all things omni, but the other thing I would add to this is that the "natural" sound of omnis in the micro/stealth mic category is in many cases vastly superior to that of similar micro cardiods. A tiny DPA, Nevaton or Countryman omni mic can easily sound as good as a $3500 pair of Schoeps if used right. The same cannot be said, in general, of micro cardiods (lightning can strike once or twice, but in general this is true). As a matter of engineering, it's apparently much easier to make an HQ mic that is tiny if it's an omni than if it's a cardiod.
Chris' small cardiod mics are among the best in their category, but his small omnis, if you can get up close on GA floors especially, are really going to sound nice. I just ran some onstage as a backup with my Schoeps MK5 (which also have an omni setting) and they held their own. Similarly, give a listen to this Kimock show: http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Steve+Kimock%22+AND+date%3A2011-11-04%2A (http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Steve+Kimock%22+AND+date%3A2011-11-04%2A)
One guy had CA-14 omnis onstage. I had a pair of $1500 AKGs on the stack. Another guy had a $6500 pair of Neumanns running as hypers another 10 or so ft behind me. See what you think.
Believe it or not, but I like the CA14 Omnis the best :)
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I have to agree with Bean, although I really like the fat bottom of the 414s. Better placement and they would win.
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I'll throw my $0.05 into the conversation.
I've run all sorts of omnis and cardioids over the years. I've run the original Core Sound Binaurals back in the mid '90s. I've run "Squidly-Diddly" (which didn't sound _THAT_ bad all flaming aside). I've run SP-CMC-8's (AT-933 cardioids) circa 2003. I've run Church Audio CAFS omnis, CA-14 omnis and CA-14 cards. I've also run DPA 4061's and Countryman B3's. I've run various battery boxes including the SP-SB-3 and CA Ugly Battery Box as well as preamps (9100 and Ugly) and am back on a CA Ugly Battery Box and am sticking with the B3's and am looking at one other option for cards.
I've made some killer recordings with the CA-14 omnis (and some okay ones with the cards). I've made some decent recordings with the DPA 4061's and I've also made one good recording with the B3's (I'm dealing with a lot on the homefront which isn't allowing me to hit a lot of shows). I love the sound of the CA-14 omnis and would love to have something with their sound in the form factor of a DPA or B3. The CAFS omnis aren't bad but they don't really hold their own against the B3/4061 options but they are considerably less expensive.
I would say the 9100 colours the sound slightly whereas the Ugly Preamp and (obviously) the Ugly Battery Box didn't.
If you can live with the size of the CA-14 omnis, you'll be very happy with recordings made with them and a battery box. If you want something a little more expensive and have the ability to get them modded/terminated in 1/8", the B3's might be worth considering. I find the DPA "sound" too bright for my ears and after recording many shows with them, I never really "liked" them all that much.
Again, mic choice is a pretty personal choice. With any of these mics/power options that I've mentioned, I think everyone around here would agree that the results would be decent and that the choices are pretty tried and true.
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The ugly and the 9100 are exactly the same circuit minus the high pass filter. they are identicle performance wise.
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I'm listening to a show I taped last night with CA-14 omnis. I upgraded to CA-14 from CA-11 about three years ago. I've made really good recordings with the cardioids as well. I use them with a CA-9100, though I'd take the 9200 now because I tape a lot of quieter acoustic stuff. These mics never cease to amaze with the quality of recording you can get at this price point. I just assumed when I bought them I'd eventually move on to more expensive mics. I never have. If you catch them on sale you can probably unload them later in the Yard Sale at the same price. I'm in the U.S. and I waited 12 weeks for each of the orders I made from Church-Audio. YMMV.
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I have to agree with Bean, although I really like the fat bottom of the 414s. Better placement and they would win.
oh, I also agree. I thought the onstage CA-14s were the best pull.
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I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back sooner, but I had a damn virus and needed to reinstall my computer (and had some work to do).
Again, many thanks for all your input. I recently flipped thru several recordings I had and thought a lot about my photo job and I settled for the chosen cards and just ordered from Chris with a battery box.
I found myself taking pictures recently and figured out, that my movement is not too much (maybe 3 feet or so mostly) so in case I tape a show that I do photo as well (which aren't in stadiums usually), I can either keep my spot or, especially when I know the band very well, use a little stand ON stage that I can plug onto my photostand (I'm figuring that one out currently). I will also tape shows where I don't move at all, and I prefer not to stand between the die hards in the FOS areas *g so I don't expect a too rowdy crowd. As I said, I might later check for omins as well, but for the shows that are coming up next on my schedule, I think the cards are a great option and so I used the 25% sale from Chris - was a bit too late for Black Friday, tho.
Money is rare, so I think it's not the worst choice to start with!
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Good movie imo
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one of the most interesting threads I've read here. I currently have ca11 cards and I'm asking Santa for the omni caps :)