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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: professorhalfbaked on January 26, 2008, 11:46:57 AM
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Hello, everybody! I have been reading this site for a while, and decided it was time to jump into the fray.
I am going to be getting an Edirol R09 or a Marantz PMD620 in the next day or two. I have been to the shop and compared the price vs. features of many of the small recorders and narrowed my choice down to these two.
I want to run small microphones into them, both straight in to the mic input with plug-in power and through a pre-amp (I am thinking about a Church Audio ST-9100). Can anybody recommend a good pair?
I have considered DPA 406x, Sennheiser (MKE2, I think?), AT (853 or 943), and Church STC-11. The DPA's are really tempting, but a bit pricey for me, especially for a first pair. I am also concerned about omni versus cardioid. Seems like most of the people here use cardioids, but some of the mics (like DPA) seem to be available only in omni.
I will be recording mostly jazz (acoustic and electric) and rock (some quite loud). So, that's my story. Can anyone lend a hand?
Thank you all in advance! Oh, and thank you for the great stuff on this board which has already helped me a lot!
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Omnis are great when things are just right but cardioids do a better job in marginal situations, and still sound quite nice when everything's just right.
I'd go with the Church audio cards to start out. You can add the omni capsules later if you decide you want them. I like the AT853s as well and they also offer the flexibility of interchangeable capsules, but I don't think they merit the higher price than the Chuch Audio mics. Either will work very nicely, but the Church mics are a better deal IMO.
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If I didn't have all that crap in my sig and was starting out, I'd get a Church Audio package. Give it some serious consideration.
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Have taken the PMD-620 deck apart and like what I am seeing like input jacks with through hole solder pads; no break-off-the-board input jacks here as opposed to R-09 'break-away' types. Below are two quickly made photos showing top/bottom of input jacks at top of first of two PCB boards inside the 620. Notice the solder pads for the input jacks go through to other side of the board (ROLAND take note on right way to do board mounted jacks on R-09 model 2!)
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/BACK SIDE-1ST BRD3069-0.jpg)
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/TOP SIDE-1ST BRD3052-0.jpg)
Omni's are my favorite for clear, clean off-axis sound with extended solid low frequency response, but matter of taste as most here seem to like cardioid with thinned out bass and hyped (that for me is most irritating) mid-range response that's also typical of some omni's like DPA 4060 types. But as said, this is a personal taste thing.
I have many music recordings using flat sounding omini type mics at www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm)
For moderate-to- loud music venue, I think 620 needs no external preamp for very good quality pop/rock recording purposes. But with external preamplifier, low noise for even pure acoustic using 620 is excellent.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/micvs3sx(log).gif)
Preamp used for this test shown at: www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#3sx (http://www.sonicstudios.com/access.htm#3sx)
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Thanks, everyone! Interesting stuff. I have read about this jack problem with the R09; maybe I go with the Marantz.
Perhaps, this is a silly question, but does having switch-able caps lead to worse quality? In other words is it better to have a pair of omni and a pair of cardiod caps on the same bodies or two pairs of mics (one omni, one cardioid)? Some of the shows I see are in concert halls with well-behaved crowds and spaces designed for acoustics (which seems ideal for omnis), while others are in loud clubs or big halls (which seems like cardioids would be better).
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I have considered DPA 406x, Sennheiser (MKE2, I think?), AT (853 or 943), and Church STC-11. The DPA's are really tempting, but a bit pricey for me, especially for a first pair. I am also concerned about omni versus cardioid. Seems like most of the people here use cardioids, but some of the mics (like DPA) seem to be available only in omni.
Are they the right price for a second pair? Spend all you can on mics, and then a little more. What can't be captured won't be recorded. 8)
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Perhaps, this is a silly question, but does having switch-able caps lead to worse quality? In other words is it better to have a pair of omni and a pair of cardiod caps on the same bodies or two pairs of mics (one omni, one cardioid)? Some of the shows I see are in concert halls with well-behaved crowds and spaces designed for acoustics (which seems ideal for omnis), while others are in loud clubs or big halls (which seems like cardioids would be better).
Switchable caps just gives you more options, it doesn't decrease any quality. You can walk into a venue with your omni caps on the bodies and if you change your mind you can whip out the cardoids. If you have mics that don't have switchable caps, you are basically stuck with whatever you brought to the venue.
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I have considered DPA 406x, Sennheiser (MKE2, I think?), AT (853 or 943), and Church STC-11. The DPA's are really tempting, but a bit pricey for me, especially for a first pair. I am also concerned about omni versus cardioid. Seems like most of the people here use cardioids, but some of the mics (like DPA) seem to be available only in omni.
All good options. Get the best mics you can afford, save yourself an upgrade later. With a battery box, a pre won't be an absolute necessity unless you're recording quiet sound sources.
That said, you can make great tapes with a cheap rig & crappy tapes with an expensive rig. Like a restaurant, in this hobby it's "location, location, location." Get the best rig you can afford, & learn to find the sweet spot.
Have fun!
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Are they the right price for a second pair? Spend all you can on mics, and then a little more. What can't be captured won't be recorded. 8)
All good options. Get the best mics you can afford, save yourself an upgrade later. With a battery box, a pre won't be an absolute necessity unless you're recording quiet sound sources.
Hmmm. This is something that hadn't occurred to me. It is just so pricey to get started (recorder, pre/b-box, mics, cables, cases, bags, stands, etc.) that I was trying to constrain the overall cost a bit. But if I upgrade my mics in six months or a year, I won't have done myself any favors long term.
I really appreciate all of your comments. I like the idea of having omnis and cardioids, so maybe switchable caps are a good route. Any opinions as to which mics with switchable caps are most worth considering?
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IMHO you get by far the most bang for your buck with the Church Audio cards and they are good enough that you probably wouldn’t feel the need to upgrade anytime soon (except perhaps to try out the omni caps for them).
I love the Church-Audio ST-9100 and his mini battery box, but I hadn't tried his cards in the field until a couple of days ago. I used them to record some friends' cover "band" (actually 2 grand pianos & vocals) as a 2nd rig directly into a MicroTrack 1 (which I also had never used in the field due to the many reported problems) . My main rig was a set of DPA 4060's →ST-9100 → iHP-120.
I was stunned how good the Church cards sounded. Practically indistinguishable from the DPA's in that particular setting and a bit less crowd noise. In other recording situations I'm sure that won't always be the case, but suffice it to say that the Church cards sounded really good.
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If you don't opt for the Church mics, AT's would be your other choice. I have 943 bodies with switchable caps. If price is a huge concern, opt for the Church mics and end your search.
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If you don't opt for the Church mics, AT's would be your other choice. I have 943 bodies with switchable caps. If price is a huge concern, opt for the Church mics and end your search.
Do the AT943's terminate with a 3.5mm (1/8") plug? Any idea who sells (hopefully matched) pairs of these terminated that way? I see them on the Sound Professionals website, but only as single mics, not pairs.
Thanks for the input, Belexes!
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Do the AT943's terminate with a 3.5mm (1/8") plug? Any idea who sells (hopefully matched) pairs of these terminated that way? I see them on the Sound Professionals website, but only as single mics, not pairs.
Thanks for the input, Belexes!
Sound Pros has pairs with 1/8" terminations:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_assets/full/SP-CMC-8.jpg
Church Audio also terminate to 1/8" come as a matched pair.
Life is full of choices. :)
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Spend a lot of time listening to other peoples recordings (like http://www.archive.org/details/etree) and try to decide what YOU like the sound of.
More importantly, consider what you are going to do with them. If you are going to be open taping with a stand, then probably the best newbie choice is cards, and you spend a little time learning how to mount them in some sort of standard configuration (like DIN). If you are stealthing, then omnis tend to be a common choice because they are less fussy about how you point them while they are hidden. Yes, you can stealth cards, and run split omnis in the open, but that tends to take a little experience to get that dialed in.
Good luck, and welcome aboard.
~~~~~~ I would give these package deals serious consideration ~~~~~~~~~~
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,94770.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90474.0.html
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Sound Pros has pairs with 1/8" terminations:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/mas_assets/full/SP-CMC-8.jpg
Church Audio also terminate to 1/8" come as a matched pair.
Life is full of choices. :)
Sorry, I didn't see that! Strangely, when you search the Sound Professionals' site for "AT943", that product doesn't show up.
At any rate, this problem is solved for the time being. A friend of mine saw this thread (I have been using the professorhalfbaked e-mail address for a while), and e-mailed to tell me that he got new mics for Christmas and he will loan me his Church STC-11's for as long as I need them. I will go with those for a while as I take SmokinJoe's advice and study the other mics I am interested in.
Thanks for all the help! I'll +T you all when I can!
Also, guysonic: I assume those are the mic-in and headphone jacks in your photos? I just got my Marantz today. ;D
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Have taken the PMD-620 deck apart and like what I am seeing like input jacks with through hole solder pads; no break-off-the-board input jacks here as opposed to R-09 'break-away' types. Below are two quickly made photos showing top/bottom of input jacks at top of first of two PCB boards inside the 620. Notice the solder pads for the input jacks go through to other side of the board (ROLAND take note on right way to do board mounted jacks on R-09 model 2!)
Nice detective work. Looks like the chip, AIC32 is the same as the Edirol R09. Are there any preamp (opamp) chips in front of this?
Richard
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Also, guysonic: I assume those are the mic-in and headphone jacks in your photos? I just got my Marantz today. ;D
Right you are, MIC input/Phones output are shown.
Also found that PMD-420 allows mic powering upgrade changing two easily accessible resistors on the facing side of the first board, so my brand of DSM mics can be directly powered after doing this modification.
Likely no preamp chips, all codec like R-09, but difficult to tell for sure without circuit diagram like provided in a repair manual for this deck.
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Right you are, MIC input/Phones output are shown.
Also found that PMD-420 allows mic powering upgrade changing two easily accessible resistors on the facing side of the first board, so my brand of DSM mics can be directly powered after doing this modification.
It says in the manual that the PMD620 provides 5V of plug-in power. How much additional power do you get with your modification? Is this necessary for small mics, like the Church Audios or the AT943s?
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Right you are, MIC input/Phones output are shown.
Also found that PMD-420 allows mic powering upgrade changing two easily accessible resistors on the facing side of the first board, so my brand of DSM mics can be directly powered after doing this modification.
It says in the manual that the PMD620 provides 5V of plug-in power. How much additional power do you get with your modification? Is this necessary for small mics, like the Church Audios or the AT943s?
Measure 'unloaded' 4.4 volts which is minimum good operating voltage for these other mics that also draw much less current with different self-limiting current bias characteristic.
DSM mics work best in opposite way with 1.5-2.5 low voltage being best. and also draw up to 10 times more current (gives lower noise/distortion advantages). Downside is reliance on less common current limiting resistor value for working bias.
With most newer decks having low voltage electret mic powering feature, current limiting resistor inside gives too much current and needs changing for DSM mic.
I found mic powering modification somewhat practical with R-09 deck, and now way easier on PMD-620, while Sony PCM-D50 deck is ONLY model found in many years perfect as-is stock for at least DSM mic powering.
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Right you are, MIC input/Phones output are shown.
Also found that PMD-420 allows mic powering upgrade changing two easily accessible resistors on the facing side of the first board, so my brand of DSM mics can be directly powered after doing this modification.
It says in the manual that the PMD620 provides 5V of plug-in power. How much additional power do you get with your modification? Is this necessary for small mics, like the Church Audios or the AT943s?
Measure 'unloaded' 4.4 volts which is minimum good operating voltage for these other mics that also draw much less current with different self-limiting current bias characteristic.
DSM mics work best in opposite way with 1.5-2.5 low voltage being best. and also draw up to 10 times more current (gives lower noise/distortion advantages). Downside is reliance on less common current limiting resistor value for working bias.
With most newer decks having low voltage electret mic powering feature, current limiting resistor inside gives too much current and needs changing for DSM mic.
I found mic powering modification somewhat practical with R-09 deck, and now way easier on PMD-620, while Sony PCM-D50 deck is ONLY model found in many years perfect as-is stock for at least DSM mic powering.
So, if I understand you correctly, the PMD620 is fine as is and would only need this modification for the DSM mics? Sorry to hit you with the stupid question, but I am new to this and don't get all of the electronic-speak 100% yet!
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I also have AT943 mics with cardioid and omni capsules. Bought them about 4 years ago and I've been very happy with them, but judging from the recordings I've heard Church's mics sound just as good and they're considerably less expensive. I think you'll like your new recorder too. Look forward to hearing some of your recordings, good luck!
Omni's are my favorite for clear, clean off-axis sound with extended solid low frequency response, but matter of taste as most here seem to like cardioid with thinned out bass and hyped (that for me is most irritating) mid-range response that's also typical of some omni's like DPA 4060 types. But as said, this is a personal taste thing.
Hey Guy, I don't think it's a matter of preferring the sound of cards for most of us, we're just trying to focus on the music and minimize the off-axis chatter and other audience noise prevailing in most places where we tape. I always use omnis when I'm recording in someone's living room. Thanks for the PMD620 photos, nice to see what it looks like on the inside! (and reassuring news on the line-in jack)
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I hear great things about these chuch mics but where can one buy them?
Google really didn't do anything in my favor this time.
Can I get a website of their mics?
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I hear great things about these chuch mics but where can one buy them?
Can I get a website of their mics?
There're a few threads in the Retail Space forum from CA and others:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/board,22.0.html
One of the CA threads probably probably also includes a link to the Church Audio eBay storefront. Or worst case you could PM/email Chris Church at his TS handle: Church-Audio.
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Well, I said I would come back and +T you all for your help when I was able, so here they are! Thanks once again. I have been impressed by the quality of a lot of the information on this board and by everyone's willingness to lend a hand. :)