Topic: not enough volume with mics > battery box > iRiver

[NOTHINGFAN]

Hi all,

Not sure exactly where this goes, but I set up my iRiver H120 to the settings in this thread, and my recordings come out really low.  Which isn't really a big problem, cause I just amplify the volume in Adobe Audition to my desired level.

I have a custom made battery box, with no gain on it, so I can't adjust it there.  Any of you have any idea on how my recordings can come out with a little more volume, and how I can adjust my iRiver to do so?

Hope this makes sense.  I'm very new at audio taping, so be gentle and be a little thorough, if possible.

Thanks in advance.

[adrianf74]

Hi all,

Not sure exactly where this goes, but I set up my iRiver H120 to the settings in this thread, and my recordings come out really low.  Which isn't really a big problem, cause I just amplify the volume in Adobe Audition to my desired level.

I have a custom made battery box, with no gain on it, so I can't adjust it there.  Any of you have any idea on how my recordings can come out with a little more volume, and how I can adjust my iRiver to do so?

Hope this makes sense.  I'm very new at audio taping, so be gentle and be a little thorough, if possible.

Thanks in advance.

Hmm... I've never run into the problem with my battery boxes in the past (core sound, giant squid or sound professionals) as I've always had good levels even a mile away.

Perhaps your battery box isn't providing enough juice.  You might want to invest in Chris Church (Church Audio)'s battery box or his pre-amp.  He'll be able to help you for certain.

[powermonkey]

The general rule of thumb, as far as I can tell, is battery box for very loud shows, to power your mics and allow them to deal with higher volumes, and preamp for quiet shows (or less loud shows) to provide more gain so you don't have to max your recorder's input (and the recorder's inherent noise).

I'll second the reccomendation for Chris Church's preamps. I've used one a couple of times and it was a fine piece of kit.

 

[NOTHINGFAN]

Awesome.  Thanks guys.  +T

[Liquid Drum]

Your best bet is to turn up the gain on your Iriver. Play around until you are happy with the settings. You should easily be able to get good levels without turning up the gain too much.

[rastasean]

I've been using the AT 831 mics with my h120 and notice I have to raise the gain up to around 20 dB in order for anything to be audible since I'm not recording music. This is no problem but I am also going to be investing in Chris Church's 9100 preamp/battery box so I'll be able to record loud shows.

On the side, when I have the same mics plugged into my sony minidisc recorder, everything records fine, even under automatic gain control. Maybe the iriver just can't power many mics like my minidisc recorder.

[Sunday Driver]

NOTHINGFAN, you are not getting any gain because of the way you are powering the mics. You are using the three wire battery box, which powers the mics properly but doesn't give you any gain. In fact, if you compare it to two wire powering (Sound Pro method), you lose about 8db of gain. Just boost the levels on the iRiver to compensate. The iRiver has plenty of analog gain.

[sunjan]

Not sure exactly where this goes, but I set up my iRiver H120 to the settings in this thread, and my recordings come out really low.  Which isn't really a big problem, cause I just amplify the volume in Adobe Audition to my desired level.

I have a custom made battery box, with no gain on it, so I can't adjust it there.  Any of you have any idea on how my recordings can come out with a little more volume, and how I can adjust my iRiver to do so?

Yeah, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but do you have Rockbox on the H120? And is it a recent build?
Since you didn't mention increasing the gain in the H120, perhaps you didn't find the setting?

Read up on the safety clip feature in Rockbox. It's the perfect way to set gain before the gig starts, and it will lower the gain until it's just below the clipping stage. Like others here said, +20dB is usually fine.

/J

[NOTHINGFAN]

NOTHINGFAN, you are not getting any gain because of the way you are powering the mics. You are using the three wire battery box, which powers the mics properly but doesn't give you any gain. In fact, if you compare it to two wire powering (Sound Pro method), you lose about 8db of gain. Just boost the levels on the iRiver to compensate. The iRiver has plenty of analog gain.

This is what I was thinking, but didn't know what to set the gain on the iRiver at.  That's pretty much my question.  Thanks for you help.

[Dede2002]

The general rule of thumb, as far as I can tell, is battery box for very loud shows, to power your mics and allow them to deal with higher volumes, and preamp for quiet shows (or less loud shows) to provide more gain so you don't have to max your recorder's input (and the recorder's inherent noise).

I'll second the reccomendation for Chris Church's preamps. I've used one a couple of times and it was a fine piece of kit.

 

Hello everyone,

I totally understand this rule. But as far as my almost zero knowledge goes, a preamp is not usefull for quiet shows only. I use a preamp because of it's clean gain in opposite to the noisier preamp of my R-09. If I set my R-09 to the so called unity gain( 8 or 9) even at loud shows I'd need my preamp to get good levels. I have run a few tests ( very amateurish...) and the noise diference between the R-09 and my CA 9100 preamp is brutal.
But this is just me.

[NOTHINGFAN]

Not sure exactly where this goes, but I set up my iRiver H120 to the settings in this thread, and my recordings come out really low.  Which isn't really a big problem, cause I just amplify the volume in Adobe Audition to my desired level.

I have a custom made battery box, with no gain on it, so I can't adjust it there.  Any of you have any idea on how my recordings can come out with a little more volume, and how I can adjust my iRiver to do so?

Yeah, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but do you have Rockbox on the H120? And is it a recent build?
Since you didn't mention increasing the gain in the H120, perhaps you didn't find the setting?

Read up on the safety clip feature in Rockbox. It's the perfect way to set gain before the gig starts, and it will lower the gain until it's just below the clipping stage. Like others here said, +20dB is usually fine.

/J

Yes, my iRiver has Rockbox on it, and I followed everything in the FAQ's for the iRiver on this site on how to set my settings. 

My setup is...

SP-CMC-4U (ATU853) cards > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox

I bought my battery box from someone on this board, and that person bought it off of someone who custom made it.  My mics are two separate mics, not terminated together, with XLR plugs. (if that explains things better).

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0.  So I'm assuming if I crank it up to 20, I'd be good to go?  I usually see loud rock concerts (Stone Temple Pilots, Pearl Jam, TOOL, Radiohead, etc...) to get an idea of the type of shows I see.  Ranging from theaters to small and big arenas.

What I've been doing is, letting my settings go, and just amplifying the volume on the recording using Adobe Audition.  Seemed to work just fine with my first recording I did. (America).

I used the same settings for Van Halen, and last night, Stone Temple Pilots, and when i play the track back on my iRiver, the volume is really, really low.

Should I upgrade my battery box, or is the way I've been doing it just fine, but just have to amplify the volume using audio software like Adobe Audition.  I mean, I know it's an extra step, but it seemed to work just fine for me.

Thanks for everyone who responded in this thread.  This info is very useful.

Hopefully I can get this issue resolved before seeing Eric Clapton two Saturdays from now. 

[sunjan]

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0.  So I'm assuming if I crank it up to 20, I'd be good to go? 

Exactly. Crank up the gain in Rockbox to say +20-24dB, activate safety clip in the recording settings, and see the invisible hand setting your gain just nicely below clipping level!

Off course Dede is also right that an external pre like the CA-9100 will give a much cleaner gain. But for guys like us who are short of money, or paranoid about pat-downs and wanding by security, less gear is a trade-off we have to take.

I'm still convinced that adding gain during the recording stage on the iRiver makes more sense than keeping the input level at +0dB and tring to boost it in post.

[NOTHINGFAN]

Thanks, all.  I will try this at the next show. 

[cgrooves]

SP-CMC-4U (ATU853) cards > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox

My mics are two separate mics, not terminated together, with XLR plugs. (if that explains things better).

Sounds like you have stock AT mics to me.  Did you order from SP with individual mini XLR terminations?

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0. 

As pointed out, that is the source of your 'not enough volume' complaint.  Your battery box isn't supplying any gain, so you need to supply gain somewhere to adjust your recording levels (i.e. via the H120). 

You are going to like the results much better than what you have been doing (i.e. boosting in post via software).

[bugg100]

Why not crank your stereo and play with the gain of your iRiver at home.  That will give you the chance to find out how hard you may be able to push the iRiver preamp before you get into a lot of noise. 

Then you can relax more at a show and be confidant of pulling a better tape.

Joe

[NOTHINGFAN]

SP-CMC-4U (ATU853) cards > custom battery box > iRiver h120 with Rockbox

My mics are two separate mics, not terminated together, with XLR plugs. (if that explains things better).

Sounds like you have stock AT mics to me.  Did you order from SP with individual mini XLR terminations?

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0. 

As pointed out, that is the source of your 'not enough volume' complaint.  Your battery box isn't supplying any gain, so you need to supply gain somewhere to adjust your recording levels (i.e. via the H120). 

You are going to like the results much better than what you have been doing (i.e. boosting in post via software).

I bought the mics from someone on this board.  This was the link provided when it was posted...

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U

and thanks for the advice on the gain.  this is what I was looking for.  Like stated previously, I just didn't know what to set it to.

[NOTHINGFAN]

Why not crank your stereo and play with the gain of your iRiver at home.  That will give you the chance to find out how hard you may be able to push the iRiver preamp before you get into a lot of noise. 

Then you can relax more at a show and be confidant of pulling a better tape.

Joe

I'd do this, but I don't have a good stereo at home enough for it to sound like a show.  A taper friend of mine told me to do this as well.

I think I'm just going to stick with the advice about just putting it up to 20, and see how that goes.

Does anyone know if once I set it to that, would I have to keep setting it to that for every recording, or will the iRiver save my settings?

[Liquid Drum]

Experiment.

Crank up your stereo and place your mics close to the speaker/s. Then play around with the gain and see how your levels work. Obviously it will be louder at an actual show so make sure that whatever setting you get that works, to turn it down a few notches on the night.

Remember, your battery box doesn't add any gain at all, you must add gain from the Iriver. +20db on both channels sounds like a good start, remember to activate safety clip just in case the 20db is too much (it will turn it down for you automatically).

It is better to add gain while recording than to add gain in post.

[NOTHINGFAN]

Experiment.

Crank up your stereo and place your mics close to the speaker/s. Then play around with the gain and see how your levels work. Obviously it will be louder at an actual show so make sure that whatever setting you get that works, to turn it down a few notches on the night.

Remember, your battery box doesn't add any gain at all, you must add gain from the Iriver. +20db on both channels sounds like a good start, remember to activate safety clip just in case the 20db is too much (it will turn it down for you automatically).

It is better to add gain while recording than to add gain in post.

I'll give it a shot.  I think I already have the safety clip activated.  According to that guide.

[Liquid Drum]

Experiment.

Crank up your stereo and place your mics close to the speaker/s. Then play around with the gain and see how your levels work. Obviously it will be louder at an actual show so make sure that whatever setting you get that works, to turn it down a few notches on the night.

Remember, your battery box doesn't add any gain at all, you must add gain from the Iriver. +20db on both channels sounds like a good start, remember to activate safety clip just in case the 20db is too much (it will turn it down for you automatically).

It is better to add gain while recording than to add gain in post.

I'll give it a shot.  I think I already have the safety clip activated.  According to that guide.

Good luck. If you have any more questions, fire away!   

[Sunday Driver]

NOTHINGFAN, you are not getting any gain because of the way you are powering the mics. You are using the three wire battery box, which powers the mics properly but doesn't give you any gain. In fact, if you compare it to two wire powering (Sound Pro method), you lose about 8db of gain. Just boost the levels on the iRiver to compensate. The iRiver has plenty of analog gain.

This is what I was thinking, but didn't know what to set the gain on the iRiver at.  That's pretty much my question.  Thanks for you help.

What you want to do is increase the levels of your iRiver until the two meters almost reach all the way to the right. The iRiver has clear, accurate gain meters, although there are no db markings. Navigate down to "Gain:" and move the "joystick" to the right until decent levels are reached.

If you set your gain to 0, it would definitely make sense that your recordings were coming out low. Just running AT831s on two wire powering with a battery box, I had to add at least 8-12db of gain with the iRiver at a loud show. For your gear, more gain would be required.

[Sunday Driver]

Why not crank your stereo and play with the gain of your iRiver at home.  That will give you the chance to find out how hard you may be able to push the iRiver preamp before you get into a lot of noise. 

Then you can relax more at a show and be confidant of pulling a better tape.

Joe

I'd do this, but I don't have a good stereo at home enough for it to sound like a show.  A taper friend of mine told me to do this as well.

I think I'm just going to stick with the advice about just putting it up to 20, and see how that goes.

Does anyone know if once I set it to that, would I have to keep setting it to that for every recording, or will the iRiver save my settings?

It saves the gain setting. But you can always adjust it while recording.

Personally, I would turn safety clip off.

[Dede2002]

My gain on my iRiver is set to 0.  So I'm assuming if I crank it up to 20, I'd be good to go? 

Exactly. Crank up the gain in Rockbox to say +20-24dB, activate safety clip in the recording settings, and see the invisible hand setting your gain just nicely below clipping level!

Off course Dede is also right that an external pre like the CA-9100 will give a much cleaner gain. But for guys like us who are short of money, or paranoid about pat-downs and wanding by security, less gear is a trade-off we have to take.

I'm still convinced that adding gain during the recording stage on the iRiver makes more sense than keeping the input level at +0dB and tring to boost it in post.

Hey Sunjan,

I am short of money AND paranoid about pat-downs and wanding by security too.
It's just that I can't help myself: I'm a compulsive buyer

[bugg100]

The iriver will remember the last setting where it was shut down at, so yeah, Safety Clip (why wouldn't you?) and for me gain of about 6 or 7.  But I use the 9100 pre, maybe 15 with the battery box.  It might be better to start a little low and ramp up versus too high and distorted.  Do you have a remote?  They really makes these easy recorders to use.

I like to set the meters to show only the last 15dB (-15 to 0dB), that way you are able to get finer resolution on the meters.  Even if your stereo isn't super loud, you can still get benefit from the practice and checking pre-amp noise.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

[NOTHINGFAN]

NOTHINGFAN, you are not getting any gain because of the way you are powering the mics. You are using the three wire battery box, which powers the mics properly but doesn't give you any gain. In fact, if you compare it to two wire powering (Sound Pro method), you lose about 8db of gain. Just boost the levels on the iRiver to compensate. The iRiver has plenty of analog gain.

This is what I was thinking, but didn't know what to set the gain on the iRiver at.  That's pretty much my question.  Thanks for you help.

What you want to do is increase the levels of your iRiver until the two meters almost reach all the way to the right. The iRiver has clear, accurate gain meters, although there are no db markings. Navigate down to "Gain:" and move the "joystick" to the right until decent levels are reached.

If you set your gain to 0, it would definitely make sense that your recordings were coming out low. Just running AT831s on two wire powering with a battery box, I had to add at least 8-12db of gain with the iRiver at a loud show. For your gear, more gain would be required.

thanks you!  this makes things so much clearer.  i totally understand what you're talking about and I'll do this for my next recording.  +T

[Sunday Driver]

You're welcome!

bugg100, I just don't like AGC. I like to have full control over my recording levels, without Rockbox deciding when it is time to reduce gain.

[sunjan]

bugg100, I just don't like AGC. I like to have full control over my recording levels, without Rockbox deciding when it is time to reduce gain.

Safety clip is not your normal AGC. Explanation in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85679.msg1139890.html#msg1139890

You can set your levels manually and still have safety clip activated. It'll only kick in if the band suddenly would start to play really loud.

Apart from using safetly clip, there's no other way I could have "full control" over the levels than staring at my levels for 90 minutes.

[Sunday Driver]

bugg100, I just don't like AGC. I like to have full control over my recording levels, without Rockbox deciding when it is time to reduce gain.

Safety clip is not your normal AGC. Explanation in this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,85679.msg1139890.html#msg1139890

You can set your levels manually and still have safety clip activated. It'll only kick in if the band suddenly would start to play really loud.

Apart from using safetly clip, there's no other way I could have "full control" over the levels than staring at my levels for 90 minutes.

Thanks, sunjan, perhaps I will give it a try. In terms of levels, I tend to "set it and forget it" though.
All of this will be moot once my new Edirol R-09HR arrives.  I do love my h120 though.

[symfan]

But I use the 9100 pre, maybe 15 with the battery box.  It might be better to start a little low and ramp up versus too high and distorted.  [..]

I like to set the meters to show only the last 15dB (-15 to 0dB), that way you are able to get finer resolution on the meters.  Even if your stereo isn't super loud, you can still get benefit from the practice and checking pre-amp noise.  Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

Hi, I've been reading this thread and learned a few new things.
A question comes to mind regarding the levels of preset on the pre-amp.

I have Core cards and pre-amp Church 9000. I can control the output from the pre-amp. Should I max it out and control the recording level with my iRiver (H340, rockbox))? Or would it be better to set it about half and then raise the level on the iRiver?

Marcel

[sunjan]

A question comes to mind regarding the levels of preset on the pre-amp.

I have Core cards and pre-amp Church 9000. I can control the output from the pre-amp. Should I max it out and control the recording level with my iRiver (H340, rockbox))? Or would it be better to set it about half and then raise the level on the iRiver?

My understanding is that the CA-9000 gain is cleaner than the iRiver gain. So you should aim at adding 0 gain on the iRiver. Crank up the gain on the pre, but just enough for your levels to max out without any iRiver gain. If you work this together with the Safety clip, you're golden.

[symfan]

A question comes to mind regarding the levels of preset on the pre-amp.

I have Core cards and pre-amp Church 9000. I can control the output from the pre-amp. Should I max it out and control the recording level with my iRiver (H340, rockbox))? Or would it be better to set it about half and then raise the level on the iRiver?

My understanding is that the CA-9000 gain is cleaner than the iRiver gain. So you should aim at adding 0 gain on the iRiver. Crank up the gain on the pre, but just enough for your levels to max out without any iRiver gain. If you work this together with the Safety clip, you're golden.

Thanks for your quick reply Sunjan! Sounds like really good advice. I'll go for this option. It'll be a killer recording, I'm sure. 

Marcel