Topic: Advice Needed: Matrix Taping

[dave570]

There is a band I am taping in a few weeks. I have board access and will also be using audience mics. The venue is a small club. I am bringing two decks, a Sony D8 and an Edirol R-09HR. My first thoughts were to do them seperately in case one of them messes up. One would be a pure board recording onto the Edirol and one would be a pure audience recording onto the D8. After listening to past board copies of this band, most of these boards suffer from an issue. The lead guitar is very light in the mix and the vocals/keys are very strong. This is typical of most board copies because the engineer is mixing the show for the venue, not for the taper. Still, the boards sound really good because of the clarity of the music and no audience noise. So now I am thinking of doing a matrix aud/board and a pure audience copy.

What is the simplest way to do this matrix? Can I take the output of the D8 (aud mics) and the outbout of the soundboard and throw them into a splitter (mini) that will feed the Edirol (50/50 split)? Or is it better to mix this at home in post processing via some program like Audacity? Or is there another method?  And finally, do I ask the board engineer for a "Line Out" or a "Monitor Out"?

I do want to enjoy this show, so anything complicated will be impacted by the number of beers I drink at the show and complications will be avoided. Thanks for your time responding to these questions.

[stevetoney]

Record them separately and then mix in post.  That way you still have the two sources that you can use in case something messes up.  Use any digital audio workstation software to mix the tracks to taste.  If you know the soundguy or if the soundguy is with the band and is interested in getting a good recording, perhaps he can give you a feed that's mixed especially for your input. 

[cybergaloot]

Also depending on where you put your mics, you may have to compensate for the time lag between the two recordings plus there may be a difference in the clock speeds of the two recorders.

If the soundman has a reference mic and the appropriate gear he may be able to tell you the time lag. If not you'll have to find a peak in both recordings and match them up. If you run your mics at the stage lip there will be no appreciable time lag.

If the clocks don't match then you will have to stretch one recording to match the other.

[StuStu]

If you can borrow a 4-track recorder from a friend, do that. It will make things much, much simpler. As for a ratio, it depends on the specific recording(s). Good luck!

[admkrk]

mixing in post can be a bitch and take some time. if you like the band, that shouldn't be a problem. best not to try to mix on the fly as any errors can be fixed if they only happen in 1 channel.

[Walstib62]

If you can't borrow a 4 ch. recorder, I would do the following:
1. Since the soundboard feed tends to have a more limited dynamic range that mic signals, I would use the D8 to record that. (it's 16 bit only, right?)
Also, you want to use the Matrix output from the board.
2.Input the mic signal to the R-09, since it is 24 bit and will provide you with increased dynamic range. 44.1 K as a sample rate will make things easier in post later, too.
3. Mix the 2 sources in Audacity. Yes, you will most likely have to deal with time delay and speed correction, but those are not as difficult to deal with as some make it out to be. Once you've done it a couple times, it's really fairly easy.

[capnhook]

If you can't borrow a 4 ch. recorder, I would do the following:
1. Since the soundboard feed tends to have a more limited dynamic range that mic signals, I would use the D8 to record that. (it's 16 bit only, right?)
Also, you want to use the Matrix output from the board.
2.Input the mic signal to the R-09, since it is 24 bit and will provide you with increased dynamic range. 44.1 K as a sample rate will make things easier in post later, too.
3. Mix the 2 sources in Audacity. Yes, you will most likely have to deal with time delay and speed correction, but those are not as difficult to deal with as some make it out to be. Once you've done it a couple times, it's really fairly easy.

Whut Walstib62 sez!........

I'd like to add that if the soundman is mixing for the room, there might be sounds other than vocals that are prominent in the board feed.......take, for example, a "hot snare drum".

In my limited experience, it's been easier to pre-process the board recording with a slight bit of frequency-dependent compression, and then combine this result with your AUD recording, than it is to make the matrix and try to remove the "hot snare" later.........

Your mileage may vary greatly, and may be dependent on the speedlimit, temperature, and humidity, however.......

[SmokinJoe]

I agree with what others have said... record to separate recorders and mix in post.  It's a bitch the first time, but once you do it a couple of times, it's not too bad.

I'll throw out one additional suggestion... once you have the DAT on the D8, you obviously need to go through some sort process for DAT > computer wav in post.  You probably have a workflow that works for you (like DAT > standalone CDburner > EAC, etc.) and that's fine.  I'll suggest in this case you try playing the DAT on that same D8 and route that output into the R09 (analog patch).  Because the D8 should play back at it's clock rate it recorded, and the R09 records at it's clock rate it used for the AUD, your "clock creep" may be less than using your traditional workflow, which may make alignment in Audacity easier.

[runonce]

In the absence of a real 4 track recorder, and even worse, the extra work of DAT>something>wav - it might be easier to just find a cheap/decent 4 channel mixer and run it on the fly. Especially if you can get your mics on stage.

From your description of your board mix - sounds like you just need to add some stage sound to fill it out. That will give you the guitars, drums, bass, and a more "live" sound - but still nice focus and clarity on the vocals.

Its not that hard to get right - and you'll save a ton of screwing around in post...

Something worth exploring if you tape in one venue or band a lot.

[dave570]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I don't have access to a 4 channel recorder and I can't afford one right now. I'm going to print everything here out and think about this but clearly doing this in post production is the only sane answer. I never thought about onstage recording this band although I have done that before for other bands and loved the results. I had wanted to keep the audience mics near the board since that is where I will be. And I'm not really sure I can run cables from the stage to the board without upsetting the club mgmt. So, I may have to run back and forth to babysit the two decks. I have the perfect onstage mic stand for this gig that is small enough to not intrude into the space for the band. Hmm.....

[dgale]

A couple of things - it was mentioned above but if you wish wish to mix on the fly, you need to deal with the time delay between the sbd feed and the time it takes the sound to get from the PA to your mics.  If you record onstage or very close to it, it's a non-issue, but the minute your mics are more than ~10' from the stage/PA, a noticeable delay between the two will be present.  You can adress this if you mix them later on, but if you choose to mix on the fly, I wanted to make sure you understood this.

As for running on stage and getting your cables back to the sbd, if the band/house are agreeable, you can just plug your mics (assuming they are XLR) into the big "snake" that runs from the stage to the sbd and then pick up your aud feed from the sbd without having to run your own cables.  There usually are always at least a few unused channels in the snake at most shows.  I don't know what sort of band/music this is, but the onstage mics works better for some than others.  Also, the aud source will only really be good for mixing and not as a stand-alone recording if there are vocals and/or instruments such as keys, horns etc. that are primarily only audible via the PA speakers (i.e. you can get a great recording of guitars, bass, drums but will miss the quieter stuff that are boosted in the house mix via the PA speakers).