Topic: Mic upgrade need advise

[swordfish]

Hi TS,

I am trying to improve my system.  But don't know if I am marching in the right way..

Thought about getting the soundprofessionals SP-CMC-4U Hypercardoid and cardoid cap or the CA 14.

I use the below listed equipment with an EDIROL R09-HR at the present.  And have to admmitt that lately I am very pleased with the DPA's and CA 9100 in smaller clubs.

SP-CMC-8 with the omni and the cardoid caps and the SP-SPSB-11 BB.
For smalller clubs and acoustic shows I use the DPA 4061 with an CA 9100 or a 9 V mintbox.

Have to say that I only do stealth recordings often in venues without security checking bags at the entrance which is quite convenient.

For larger veues 1500-3000 I thought about the above mentioned SP-CMC-4U. Does that make sense or should I invest more money in a naiant littlebox to get more headroom.

I am open for all suggestions ....and I still consider myself a newbie/rockkie to taping ..so bear with me...

Cheers SFT

[Nick's Picks]

you've got good mics, and a nice deck.
I would stick w/the DPA/9100 combo.  that's hard to beat.  Just focus on *where* you are at this point.  its all about location.

If you need cards, then i'd go straight for those Church CA14's.

[swordfish]

you've got good mics, and a nice deck.
I would stick w/the DPA/9100 combo.  that's hard to beat.  Just focus on *where* you are at this point.  its all about location.

If you need cards, then i'd go straight for those Church CA14's.

I know the CA 14 is a good mic ...but not really stealthy...as well I thought about a hyper element ......if you are further away from stage and you are not able to walk a CA 9100 and a recorder in addtion thru security...

Just my 2 Cents

SFT

But I don't know if I make the right assumptions....being far a way from stage to get a decent recording with hyper caps/Battery Box without the CA 9100

[Nick's Picks]

nope.  you want to use the basic formula of the equalateral triangle.
distance between the STACKS...,, and stand that distance away from the stage.
so if the PA is 40' from one side to the other on stage, then being 40-60' away from stage should yield good results.

Remember, the sound guy is dialing it in to his ears.  if you are near the board, you are hearing what he hears, how he wants it to sound, and likely one of the "sweet spots" in the venue.
You really need to sort of walk around while the house music is playing (before the band starts) and just listen.  Plant yourself where you think it sounds best.

Sneaking a 9100>R9 in for a stealth situation is not too hard.
Just think like a taping Jedi, have good excuses on hand for questions at the door...and you're good to go.

[swordfish]

nope.  you want to use the basic formula of the equalateral triangle.
distance between the STACKS...,, and stand that distance away from the stage.
so if the PA is 40' from one side to the other on stage, then being 40-60' away from stage should yield good results.

Remember, the sound guy is dialing it in to his ears.  if you are near the board, you are hearing what he hears, how he wants it to sound, and likely one of the "sweet spots" in the venue.
You really need to sort of walk around while the house music is playing (before the band starts) and just listen.  Plant yourself where you think it sounds best.

Sneaking a 9100>R9 in for a stealth situation is not too hard.
Just think like a taping Jedi, have good excuses on hand for questions at the door...and you're good to go.

So all I need are 'balls'...My equipment got confisicated once...before a show I really wanted to tape...and at another venue..the recording sounded quite 'thin when I was very far away....but at that time I had problems with my BB.

So there is still the open question if I should replace the soundprofessionals SP-CMC-8 with the SP-CMC-4U...Or can anybody point to a stealthy cardoid mic?

Thanks in advance,

SFT

[jefflester]

So there is still the open question if I should replace the soundprofessionals SP-CMC-8 with the SP-CMC-4U

That seems like a lateral move. You said you have the card caps for the CMC-8. In small venues when you are close use the DPA 4061, when you are further away in a larger venue, use the CMC-8 with cards. If that is not satisfying you, yes you are looking for an upgrade there. If the CA-14s don't seem right, the CA-11s are smaller and are (from what I understand) a step up from the Audio-Technicas used in the SP products. Chris has indicated the CA-11 cardiods are directionally between cardiod and hyper-cardiod. You could also try hypercard caps for your CMC-8 as an option. Is there a reason you don't use the 9100 with the CMC-8? And I don't think you want a Littlebox, that's significantly larger than the 9100 or your battery box.

Me, I just recently ordered some Audix 1280 cardiod caps and the Church active cables* along with a CA-UGLY for precisely this reason, to get a very small card setup to complement my DPA4061 (Core Sound HEB). The DPAs are great for any small/up close situation, but in larger situations I wanted some small cards because the omnis pick up too much room/audience. There are also hyper caps in that Audix line. I am a 95% stealther and also a bit paranoid about the size of my gear. I have been stopped at the door a couple of times in the past and it was not pleasant, though it was with older and larger equipment.


*See: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124072.0;all

[Nick's Picks]

that does indeed look like a great setup.
Hmmm....

[Belexes]

Having owned SP-CMC-8's and SP-CMC-4U's...the 4U's are far and away an improvement.  The 8's to me sounded thin and completely lacked any low end.  The 4's bring more fullness to the sound and more low end.

Be discreet with your taping and use larger mics. Jedi skills go a long way.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

the CA-11s are smaller and are (from what I understand) a step up from the Audio-Technicas used in the SP products.

I have/use both the CA-11 and SP-CMC-2 (which many feel are a little lower down the food chain from the 4's and 8's) and think they're both good mic sets but also feel that going from the SP-CMC-8 to CA-11 would be another lateral move for you.  I find them pretty similar in their overall sound, the quality is neck and neck, and in size, the the CA-11 is a little smaller but not by a vastly significant amount.

I'm siding with Nick on this: your mics and rig are good, maybe it's your location in the venue?  Or maybe, like most of us here, you just want to buy more gear.   It's a never-ending hobby...

[swordfish]

I have been gone for a few days..thanks for all the responses so far.

after recording of 40 shows I consider myself still a newbie ....I have done video and audio and I think I have a feeling for sweet spots in the venue by now...nevertheless I hope to improve the gear....But I dont know if It makes sense to spend the money if the upgrade it not significant ....I will listen to samples for the M1280 caps..but I think they are not real stealthy...

1. So does it make sense to buy hyper cardoid caps....for larger venues?

2. Are the CA 14 larger then the audio technica caps from SP?

3. Are the CA 14 a lateral move to the SP-CMC-4U.

It was mentioned before that the SP-CMC-4U will be an improvemnet to the SP-CMC-8 !!!

SFT






 

[Nick's Picks]

1. hypers might help, but not just for larger venues.  works well for chatty crowd control too.  They are not as natural sounding to my ears, but the GOOD ONES are awesome (by good ones, i'm talking way outside the budget of these other mics).  Although, I'm a fan of the Oktava mc012 hyper cap.  that sounds pretty decent out of their selection.  Not stealthy though.

2. ca14 vs. AT853 caps, not sure.  the difference would be minor at best (guessing) as the AT caps are pretty small on their own.

3. thats a question for Chris Church, he'll give you an honest answer on sound w/o $$ being in the equation of his through process.

Honestly, the more I go through this thread..., my conclusion would be
- sell the DPAs
- by the Church Audio cables for the Audix 12xx series.
- buy the card and hyper caps for those
YOU ARE DONE ! , and have a nice upgrade in microphones in the all around sense of things.  I used to have the 1290hc from Audix, pulled some outstanding recordings with them.

[swordfish]

1. hypers might help, but not just for larger venues.  works well for chatty crowd control too.  They are not as natural sounding to my ears, but the GOOD ONES are awesome (by good ones, i'm talking way outside the budget of these other mics).  Although, I'm a fan of the Oktava mc012 hyper cap.  that sounds pretty decent out of their selection.  Not stealthy though.

2. ca14 vs. AT853 caps, not sure.  the difference would be minor at best (guessing) as the AT caps are pretty small on their own.

3. thats a question for Chris Church, he'll give you an honest answer on sound w/o $$ being in the equation of his through process.

Honestly, the more I go through this thread..., my conclusion would be
- sell the DPAs
- by the Church Audio cables for the Audix 12xx series.
- buy the card and hyper caps for those
YOU ARE DONE ! , and have a nice upgrade in microphones in the all around sense of things.  I used to have the 1290hc from Audix, pulled some outstanding recordings with them.

The audix are not real stealthy...Aren't they....1290hc means Hyper Caps?  Are there any Clips available for those caps...?

I know lots of questions but ...

Thanks SFT

[MJ]

The cheapest and surest upgrade for you is to buy adapters for AT853 and AT853 caps(card?) at Yard Sale. 
SP-CMC-8(AT943s) bodies adapters with SP-CMC-4 (AT 853s) caps>CA9100>M-10 sounds pretty good to my ears.

Here is a sample I recorded with the set-up above.

Jeff Beck(Osaka 2nd) Stratus/Led Boots
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SQJYP58W
Jeff Beck(Osaka 2nd) Led Boots
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YYIFLKRX

The important thing is what kind of sound you want and where in the venue you usually you tape.  Each microphone has unique flavors like ice cream.  Pick the one you like.

If you tape up-close to the stage and want the in-your-face sound, you should go for DPA or Audix micro line.  But if you tape close to the sweet sound spot in the venue, then you should go for CMC-8 bodies and CMC-4 caps……Of course IMO

Here is another sample.  Just in case you wonder how it sounds.
Audix Micro Caps + CA-11 cables (Already ordered real church cables)

Jeff Beck(Osaka 1st)Stratus/Led Boots
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=H3XRL398
Jeff Beck(Osaka 1st)Led Boots
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1B06YVKW

Koichi

[swordfish]

Hi ,

I am a step further since the last time.  I just traded my SP-CMC-8(AT943s) witha SP-CMC-4 (will test also the HC caps)in addition I plan to order the audix caps(C,HC) and will ask Chris to build the cables for me.  The problem is to get these caps Northface will not sent to Europe...but I convinced a friend of mine to place the order for me.  But that won't happen before the end of April...so everything is in the works at the moment.

Thanks for all the advise and help,

swordfish

[su6oxone]

The audix are not real stealthy...Aren't they....1290hc means Hyper Caps?  Are there any Clips available for those caps...?

The Audix 1280/1290 caps are the same size as the Church Audio CA-11 caps, and if you get the aforementioned cables/bodies that Chris Church makes for them, they should be perfect for ste@lthing.  I think that might be the best way to go because you can use the Audix omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid caps with that setup, it's easily ste@lthable, and should sound great.  A TSer (mterry I think) has made some great Phish tapes with the 1290hc caps, I would try to check them out (etree).  For clips, you can use those small clips that Sound Pro sells or you could probably ask Chris to attach some alligator clips to the bodies. 

[ballerusk]

I used AT853 hypers for a Depeche Mode-concert a few months ago: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=288552

I thought it came out great, if a bit bassy.

[stevetoney]

I have nothing add, although I would like to comment on the statement you made earlier in this thread that you've had your equipment confiscated once.  I realize that things are different here in the US than in Europe, but I've recorded plenty of shows in Europe too.  While I'm no expert on laws and such, I would say that even if I were caught trying to stealth a show in Europe, only in the extremest situation would I ever allow anyone to touch my gear.  I suppose if it's a police officer that's taking my gear from me, I wouldn't have too much to say about it.  However, if it's someone at the front door of a venue, there's simply no way they're getting my gear.  If I have to leave quickly, then I'll leave. 

I know that situations can escalate and that there's times when giving up your gear might seem like the only option.  I'm just suggesting that, before it gets to that point, I would calmly (using non-confrontational verbal and body language) explain to the people you're dealing with that you'll cooperate, but NO they will not be touching my gear.  Do this as you're walking towards to exit, so hopefully you'll be near or in your car by the time any situation might escalate.

Question:  In Europe, since many venue's also say 'no pictures', do they have a right to confiscate your picture phone if someone decides to shoot a picture against the rules?  I know Europe, and I also know that everyone has a cell phone and that everyone uses them multiple times daily!!!!

[Church-Audio]

I have been gone for a few days..thanks for all the responses so far.

after recording of 40 shows I consider myself still a newbie ....I have done video and audio and I think I have a feeling for sweet spots in the venue by now...nevertheless I hope to improve the gear....But I dont know if It makes sense to spend the money if the upgrade it not significant ....I will listen to samples for the M1280 caps..but I think they are not real stealthy...

1. So does it make sense to buy hyper cardoid caps....for larger venues?

Not really.. Unless you can keep you're head perfectly still
2. Are the CA 14 larger then the audio technica caps from SP?

Yes they are larger. But you know what they say about size lol....

3. Are the CA 14 a lateral move to the SP-CMC-4U.

Not in the opinion of many of my customers.

It was mentioned before that the SP-CMC-4U will be an improvement to the SP-CMC-8 !!!

Yes I personally feel that they are because I find the 8 to have less low frequency response then the 4's this is due to diaphragm size more then anything.
SFT

[acidjack]

Not to muddy the waters too much here, but did mterry make those pulls with the CAPS alone or with the 1280s with bodies?

I only have the 1280c caps and the Church cables.  They do a good job for what they are though the sound IMHO is way more "colored" than with some mics.  The bass response is definitely not what it is on the U853s; that can be a good or bad thing depending what you like/don't like about those mics. 

Anyway, I am just wondering whether Audix 1280 sound the same when they are run with bodies and 48v phantom power vs. the chopped-down Church setup.

I've also never heard a stealth tape with the omnis... I would be curious to do so, if anyone has links...

The audix are not real stealthy...Aren't they....1290hc means Hyper Caps?  Are there any Clips available for those caps...?

The Audix 1280/1290 caps are the same size as the Church Audio CA-11 caps, and if you get the aforementioned cables/bodies that Chris Church makes for them, they should be perfect for ste@lthing.  I think that might be the best way to go because you can use the Audix omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid caps with that setup, it's easily ste@lthable, and should sound great.  A TSer (mterry I think) has made some great Phish tapes with the 1290hc caps, I would try to check them out (etree).  For clips, you can use those small clips that Sound Pro sells or you could probably ask Chris to attach some alligator clips to the bodies.

[swordfish]

Just want to let you know that I am back from my trip and will respond to all the posts asap.

Swordfish

BTW:  I received the the SP 4 U mics which I traded for my SP ...8 .....and was kinda shocked about the size and cables(my fault since i didn't have asked the right question and expected it being the same seize as the SP......dunno if thats stealthy at all...maybe stealthy for a theater...with only one neighbor left and right ...but not for small venues or clubs with waiters and lots of people moving around...where to mount it with the huge clips.....Just my 2 Cents

[Church-Audio]

Just want to let you know that I am back from my trip and will respond to all the posts asap.

Swordfish

BTW:  I received the the SP 4 U mics which I traded for my SP ...8 .....and was kinda shocked about the size and cables(my fault since i didn't have asked the right question and expected it being the same seize as the SP......dunno if thats stealthy at all...maybe stealthy for a theater...with only one neighbor left and right ...but not for small venues or clubs with waiters and lots of people moving around...where to mount it with the huge clips.....Just my 2 Cents

I have a mod for these mics that cuts down the size quite a bit and I can recable them with small cable if you are interested send me a pm.


Chris

[swordfish]

I have nothing add, although I would like to comment on the statement you made earlier in this thread that you've had your equipment confiscated once.  I realize that things are different here in the US than in Europe, but I've recorded plenty of shows in Europe too.  While I'm no expert on laws and such, I would say that even if I were caught trying to stealth a show in Europe, only in the extremest situation would I ever allow anyone to touch my gear.  I suppose if it's a police officer that's taking my gear from me, I wouldn't have too much to say about it.  However, if it's someone at the front door of a venue, there's simply no way they're getting my gear.  If I have to leave quickly, then I'll leave. 

I know that situations can escalate and that there's times when giving up your gear might seem like the only option.  I'm just suggesting that, before it gets to that point, I would calmly (using non-confrontational verbal and body language) explain to the people you're dealing with that you'll cooperate, but NO they will not be touching my gear.  Do this as you're walking towards to exit, so hopefully you'll be near or in your car by the time any situation might escalate.

Question:  In Europe, since many venue's also say 'no pictures', do they have a right to confiscate your picture phone if someone decides to shoot a picture against the rules?  I know Europe, and I also know that everyone has a cell phone and that everyone uses them multiple times daily!!!!

Now I have some time to get back to this subject.  The equipment was placed in a carry on backpack...Pro's at the entrance since a previous prime minister of the Republic was attending the concert and ended up sitting two rows in front of me.

Very professional security.....confisicated meant in my case...they told me to place my backback with gear in the a special storage compartment...and gave it back after the show...

I attended a Tom Waits show in Edinburgh in 2008 and the ushers were very straight if somebody wanted to use his Cell to make any pictures or movies...You will find  only snippets of these shows on you Tube.  Other then that there are always signs at the entrance of the venues not to use the cell/cameres but people still use their cells and cameras.  Which his hard to control in larger venues IMO.  Don't know if they have a legal right to take away the cell or camera.


Swordfish

[swordfish]

Not to muddy the waters too much here, but did mterry make those pulls with the CAPS alone or with the 1280s with bodies?

I only have the 1280c caps and the Church cables.  They do a good job for what they are though the sound IMHO is way more "colored" than with some mics.  The bass response is definitely not what it is on the U853s; that can be a good or bad thing depending what you like/don't like about those mics. 

Anyway, I am just wondering whether Audix 1280 sound the same when they are run with bodies and 48v phantom power vs. the chopped-down Church setup.

I've also never heard a stealth tape with the omnis... I would be curious to do so, if anyone has links...

The audix are not real stealthy...Aren't they....1290hc means Hyper Caps?  Are there any Clips available for those caps...?

The Audix 1280/1290 caps are the same size as the Church Audio CA-11 caps, and if you get the aforementioned cables/bodies that Chris Church makes for them, they should be perfect for ste@lthing.  I think that might be the best way to go because you can use the Audix omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid caps with that setup, it's easily ste@lthable, and should sound great.  A TSer (mterry I think) has made some great Phish tapes with the 1290hc caps, I would try to check them out (etree).  For clips, you can use those small clips that Sound Pro sells or you could probably ask Chris to attach some alligator clips to the bodies.

Are you able to explain your statement  'colored sound of the Audix' caps'....in comparism to the DPA 4061 or the SP 4 U?

Still haven't found a source to buy the 1290 HC or C caps.

Thanks for sharing your ideas,

Swordfish

[MJ]

Not to muddy the waters too much here, but did mterry make those pulls with the CAPS alone or with the 1280s with bodies?

I only have the 1280c caps and the Church cables.  They do a good job for what they are though the sound IMHO is way more "colored" than with some mics.  The bass response is definitely not what it is on the U853s; that can be a good or bad thing depending what you like/don't like about those mics. 

Anyway, I am just wondering whether Audix 1280 sound the same when they are run with bodies and 48v phantom power vs. the chopped-down Church setup.

I've also never heard a stealth tape with the omnis... I would be curious to do so, if anyone has links...

The audix are not real stealthy...Aren't they....1290hc means Hyper Caps?  Are there any Clips available for those caps...?

The Audix 1280/1290 caps are the same size as the Church Audio CA-11 caps, and if you get the aforementioned cables/bodies that Chris Church makes for them, they should be perfect for ste@lthing.  I think that might be the best way to go because you can use the Audix omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid caps with that setup, it's easily ste@lthable, and should sound great.  A TSer (mterry I think) has made some great Phish tapes with the 1290hc caps, I would try to check them out (etree).  For clips, you can use those small clips that Sound Pro sells or you could probably ask Chris to attach some alligator clips to the bodies.

Are you able to explain your statement  'colored sound of the Audix' caps'....in comparism to the DPA 4061 or the SP 4 U?

Still haven't found a source to buy the 1290 HC or C caps.

Thanks for sharing your ideas,

Swordfish

Hi Swordfish
Mid high and high is more prominent and incredibly clear and detailed while the low end is neither lacking nor muddy but kind of needs to be warmer.  Keep those in mind and listen to those samples below, you will know the difference between audix micro and DPA or AT853
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MUYBIP40
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=C7J33Z19

I have run M1280 along with FR-2LE for ste##th recording and really love the sound of it but was kind of disappointed with Audix micro caps and CA-11 cable combo.  I wish I could use Church Audio special cable for Audio micro caps to make the real comparison but…. I have yet to receive his cables from Chris after I made the payment for them in January….
Koichi

[jefflester]

Not to muddy the waters too much here, but did mterry make those pulls with the CAPS alone or with the 1280s with bodies?

I only have the 1280c caps and the Church cables.  They do a good job for what they are though the sound IMHO is way more "colored" than with some mics.  The bass response is definitely not what it is on the U853s; that can be a good or bad thing depending what you like/don't like about those mics. 

Anyway, I am just wondering whether Audix 1280 sound the same when they are run with bodies and 48v phantom power vs. the chopped-down Church setup.

I've also never heard a stealth tape with the omnis... I would be curious to do so, if anyone has links...

The audix are not real stealthy...Aren't they....1290hc means Hyper Caps?  Are there any Clips available for those caps...?

The Audix 1280/1290 caps are the same size as the Church Audio CA-11 caps, and if you get the aforementioned cables/bodies that Chris Church makes for them, they should be perfect for ste@lthing.  I think that might be the best way to go because you can use the Audix omni, cardioid, and hypercardioid caps with that setup, it's easily ste@lthable, and should sound great.  A TSer (mterry I think) has made some great Phish tapes with the 1290hc caps, I would try to check them out (etree).  For clips, you can use those small clips that Sound Pro sells or you could probably ask Chris to attach some alligator clips to the bodies.

Are you able to explain your statement  'colored sound of the Audix' caps'....in comparism to the DPA 4061 or the SP 4 U?

Still haven't found a source to buy the 1290 HC or C caps.

Thanks for sharing your ideas,

Swordfish

It's been mentioned in several threads that you can get the Audix caps from Full Compass. I also found another source in Northern Sound and Light:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124072.msg1744011#msg1744011

EDIT to add: though in re-reading thread I am reminded that you are in Europe, so this information may not help you.

[guysonic]

Here is a mic made by my company since 1986, and not yet mentioned here working directly into MOD-4 www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#mod4 upgraded R-09HR deck, and is smallest system available.  Suggest DSM-6S/L mic model for general pop/rock interests.


Recording samples using this mic model + deck configuration (~identical 09HR & other models of deck) in retail section thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0;all

Also many recordings using same mic in different system configurations on site page: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm#performance

Tech review of R-09HR at: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm