Topic: what card/hyper active alternatives are there?

[DSatz]

Ummm ... of all the microphones mentioned so far, only the Schoeps actually has an active extension cable. All the others, as far as I'm aware, have passive extensions. The various systems are quite different from one another from the point of view of vulnerability to external interference and potential loss of signal quality.

So could we please not call something "active" unless it is truly (electrically) active? Is that too much to ask?

Also, most microphones that are called either "hypercardioid" or "supercardioid" are in fact something in between the two, generally coming a little closer to supercardioid if you have to pick one or the other. There is less difference in the actual patterns of available microphone types than you might think based on their manufacturers' choice of one or the other term. True hypercardioid microphones are especially rare; there's fairly widespread agreement that the in-between pattern is much more useful in practice.

--best regards

[illconditioned]

Ummm ... of all the microphones mentioned so far, only the Schoeps actually has an active extension cable. All the others, as far as I'm aware, have passive extensions. The various systems are quite different from one another from the point of view of vulnerability to external interference and potential loss of signal quality.

So could we please not call something "active" unless it is truly (electrically) active? Is that too much to ask?

--best regards

Are you saying MiLabs or MHBO or Beyerdynamic are passive?  Do you consider a FET in the housing behind the capsule "active", or do you require some gain and/or line driver there as well?

  Richard

[DSatz]

If an extension device contains active circuitry (typically a simple impedance converter with a low-noise FET) then it's active, of course.

But if the FET is in the housing along with the capsule, then the capsule is what's active. A good example of that arrangement would be Neumann's KM 100-series microphones. The capsule heads for that series are the AK 20, AK 30, etc.--the "A" stands for "active" because the capsule heads themselves contain the impedance converter stage (see attached photo; the bottom half of the capsule head is an impedance converter "barrel" that is common to all this series of capsules).

In some microphones that have remote capsule capability, there's no active circuitry either before or within the capsule extension devices--though of course those designs can be vulnerable to a loss of signal quality both due to stray capacitance and RFI. Such microphones don't always hold up well at concerts where there can be dozens of GHz-range transmitters close by in people's pockets, but they're a lot cheaper to manufacture.

Does that make sense? If a capsule extension device (cable, gooseneck, whatever) has active circuitry in it, it's active; if not, then it's just a capsule extension cable, or a capsule extension "whatever."

My apologies to the original poster for temporarily hijacking the thread; let's return to his original question now, OK?

--best regards

[illconditioned]

If an extension device contains active circuitry (typically a simple impedance converter with a low-noise FET) then it's active, of course.

But if the FET is in the housing along with the capsule, then the capsule is what's active. A good example of that arrangement would be Neumann's KM 100-series microphones. The capsule heads for that series are the AK 20, AK 30, etc.--the "A" stands for "active" because the capsule heads themselves contain the impedance converter stage (see attached photo; the bottom half of the capsule head is an impedance converter "barrel" that is common to all this series of capsules).

In some microphones with remote capsule capability there's no active circuitry either before or within the capsule extension devices--though of course those designs can be vulnerable to a loss of signal quality, so they should be used only when there's no alternative.

OK, I understand your distinction: active capsule vs. active cable.

AFAIK a circuit without a FET, either in the cable or in the capsule, would *not* work.  Too much loss.  You cannot go more than a few inches with the high impedance output directly from the capsule.  There are some AKG "extension tubes" or  "swivels" that are just a wire, but I think the tubes go for less than 12".  There are some solutions that use electrets (instead of external polarization), but those still need a FET to work.  We don't call these "active" usually, but they still have a FET, either in the capsule, or in the head that the capsule screws in to.
 
That said, I believe most of the (relatively new) options presented (beyerdynamic ck930, vmlink 44, mbho) are active *cable* designs.  AFAIK Neumann is the only active *capsule* design (for patent reasons, probably, as you mentioned earlier).

  Richard

[JasonSobel]

That said, I believe most of the (relatively new) options presented (beyerdynamic ck930, vmlink 44, mbho) are active *cable* designs.  AFAIK Neumann is the only active *capsule* design (for patent reasons, probably, as you mentioned earlier).

Richard,

actually, I think you have it backwards.  most of the options talked about in this thread are actually active *capsule* designs.  The Neumann, the beyerdynamic, and the MBHO are all definitely active *capsules*, and the cable is just a plan old cable, with no electronics.  I'm not sure about the Milabs, as I have never seen one of those.

- Jason

[illconditioned]

That said, I believe most of the (relatively new) options presented (beyerdynamic ck930, vmlink 44, mbho) are active *cable* designs.  AFAIK Neumann is the only active *capsule* design (for patent reasons, probably, as you mentioned earlier).

Richard,

actually, I think you have it backwards.  most of the options talked about in this thread are actually active *capsule* designs.  The Neumann, the beyerdynamic, and the MBHO are all definitely active *capsules*, and the cable is just a plan old cable, with no electronics.  I'm not sure about the Milabs, as I have never seen one of those.

- Jason

Aha.  I think you're right, active cables not active capsules.  OK, that is correct...

  Richard

[John Willett]

And the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are actually the complete microphone in the capsule - the remote cable is fully balanced and the XLR bit is just an adaptor.

[JasonSobel]

And the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are actually the complete microphone in the capsule - the remote cable is fully balanced and the XLR bit is just an adaptor.

From your description, it sounds like the MKH 8000 series is like the Schoeps CCM series and/or the compact DPA series of mics.
My question is, if the XLR bit at the end is just an adaptor, why didn't Sennheiser choose to just make the cable end an XLR connector?

[page]

And the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series are actually the complete microphone in the capsule - the remote cable is fully balanced and the XLR bit is just an adaptor.

From your description, it sounds like the MKH 8000 series is like the Schoeps CCM series and/or the compact DPA series of mics.
My question is, if the XLR bit at the end is just an adaptor, why didn't Sennheiser choose to just make the cable end an XLR connector?

Size constraints on the other (cap) end maybe?

I swear the milab vm-links are the same way, mini-microphone style without a dedicated "body" to connect through. Who has a set and can confirm?
edit: dennis ftw. I couldn't find pictures online. Thanks!

[dennisrtyler]

milabs have a body in the chain

[Todd R]

Milabs are also active-cable, not active capsule.  The capsule is the same capsule used on the full body vm44-classic and doesn't have any components in it.  The active-cables have a housing at the end of the cable which I'm assuming has the active components (eg, FET) in it, since those components pretty clearly aren't found in the capsule.

Somehow I was thinking the Beyer mk930 were the same way, though I haven't seen them up close.  I agree though on the mbho's having owned them for a short while -- those are like the neumanns and use an active-capsule design.

[JasonSobel]

Milabs are also active-cable, not active capsule.  The capsule is the same capsule used on the full body vm44-classic and doesn't have any components in it.  The active-cables have a housing at the end of the cable which I'm assuming has the active components (eg, FET) in it, since those components pretty clearly aren't found in the capsule.

Somehow I was thinking the Beyer mk930 were the same way, though I haven't seen them up close.  I agree though on the mbho's having owned them for a short while -- those are like the neumanns and use an active-capsule design.

here's a picture of a beyerdynamic CK930 capsule (not the best picture, but it's clear enough)



The cable itself is just a 4-conductor cable, with mini-XLR connectors on each end. The stock cable was ~10ft (3meters), and I now also have a pair of 5ft cables, and a pair of 20 ft cables.  making the additional cables between the cap and body wasn't any more difficult than soldering a mini-XLR connector (which proved to be too small for my soldering abilities, so I had darktrain make one set, and HAVE make the other).