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Author Topic: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?  (Read 6508 times)

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Offline Toki

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Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« on: September 07, 2011, 11:10:04 AM »
Hi guys,
I am taping various shows (from very quiet to very loud ones) with camcorder, and recording separate audio with Rode Stereo Videomic plugged into R-09 line-in. Another mic (Core Sound stealth) is plugged into camcorder, but the sound from it is never used for post-processing. I am quite happy with  this setup, but the question is - can I get a significant improvement if I upgrade my mic to Rode NT4?
I have the following requirements for the mic:
1) a stereo mic with small tripod mount (I am not considering two mono mics - too difficult to set up in most venues I'm visiting).
2) battery powered
3) can handle high spl.
I like everything about SVM, but would appreciate a bit more details and transparency in the sound.
NT4 seems to be in a higher class, but it has several drawbacks for my tasks - it has XLR output that I don't need, and doesn't have a shockmount.
I would highly appreciate if someone who have compared these 2 mics can help me with decision.
Besides, I would appreciate a suggestion of a mic with similar design (fitting into above mentioned requirements) and not too expensive that will give a significant improvement over SVM.
I know that Rode mics are not very popular on this forum, but nevertheless I would especially appreciate opinions based on personal experience with these mics.
Thanks in advance!

Offline moooose

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 03:41:05 AM »
Hi

I can't help you regarding a serious comparison, because I didn't do it. For what I listened, the NT4 does deliver more details and trasparency, but you need a proper A/B test.
Regarding shockmount, I use a slightly tweaked  (you have to make the hole in the rubber mount a little bigger) Rode pistol grip. It works and is not expensive.

Offline mepaca

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 08:07:02 AM »
Hello-
   The Nt4 also has a stereo output cable that terminates to an 1/8" mini plug that will go right into your r-09. The mic can either be powered
with 48v phantom through the xlr adaptor or using the internal 9v battery when using the mini plug.

Offline dream

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 10:44:27 AM »

Regarding shockmount, I use a slightly tweaked  (you have to make the hole in the rubber mount a little bigger) Rode pistol grip. It works and is not expensive.

Hey, that's a good idea ...! At the moment I use the Rode SM4 with double amount of rubbers ... but that's no real solution as the additional rubbers fall off easily and
the NT4 is still too heavy, the same goes for the Invision 8. The SM4 lacks a cable clamp which counteracts the purpose of a shockmount IMO. Do you use the PG2? Did you use a cutter for carpets or alike?
The NT4 is a great mic but way too heavy.

Offline Toki

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 12:13:06 PM »
Thanks for the answers, I really should find the way to test them physically against each other...

Offline DSatz

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2011, 12:22:37 AM »
The NT4 is fine for studio-style close-up miking, or for "environmental" recordings where the sound is coming from all directions at once, or even business meetings where the people are sitting all around a table. And when I say "fine" I don't mean to be dismissive--it is a high-quality microphone with single-diaphragm, small-diaphragm capsules that maintain their directional pattern very well across the frequency range--essential characteristics for optimal coincident or near-coincident stereo recording.

But for a coincident pair of cardioids to be angled at only 90° isn't a suitable setup for the kind of semi-distant music recording that most people on this board seem to do most of the time. Cardioid is a broad pickup pattern, so a lot of the identical signal gets into both capsules at the same instant, which creates a near-mono recording. When such recordings are played back over loudspeakers, the direct sound sources get lumped together in or near the center, unless they're arrayed across a very wide arc (say, 180°) in front of the microphones.

The design would have been much better for concert recording if the capsules were supercardioid or if they were set to a considerably wider angle (say, 120°) or if there were a few inches between the capsules and a wider angle were chosen, making the arrangement more like ORTF.
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Toki

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 02:26:47 AM »
Thanks for the input DSatz.
Indeed the set up I am currently using is probably far from high standards of quality audio recording, but still I do enjoy my videos. In most cases I'm trying to obtain soundboard recording to complement the sound from the mic and in the final mix the stereo is quite good (at least to my ears). If NT4 is better (or at least not much worse) than SVM in terms of stereo separation than it's ok for me. Of course I would be happy to consider more"proper" mic in case there will be no loss in flexibility of setting it up in the messy venues (often I'm severely lack time and space for the installation before starting video recording).

Btw, I have made a quick (and not very fair) comparison of SVM recording with a properly set Oktava mics, CA-14 and Core Sound stealth binaurals, and I found that the Rode sounds best to me, with good "spacey" presentation, deep lows and the most natural highs among all three. That's just my opinion for my recording conditions...

Offline moooose

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 03:38:14 AM »

Hey, that's a good idea ...! SNIP
Do you use the PG2? Did you use a cutter for carpets or alike?

Yes man, I use the PG2.
It is delivered with two rubber mounts. I kept one "as is" for shotguns, enlarged the hole of the other one with a dremel tool. You can use a half round file to do the job.

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 10:52:56 AM »
Going to the NT4 won't help with your stereo separation, both are cardioid condensers in an xy configuration.

A better option for a stereo video mic is a M/S mic. (Mid/Side) these use elements with different patterns and have a stereo separation that's switchable, either on the mic, or with some there is also an option to record mid to one channel and side to the other. In post you can then adjust the stereo field.

The other advantage to M/S recording is that the signal converts to mono well. This is as well as the single mic body is why videographers like them.

This Sony mic for example has the M/S decoder built in with 90 degree and 120 degree patterns, .

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542166-REG/Sony_ECM_957PRO_ECM_957PRO_Mid_Side_Stereo_Microphone.html

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Offline Toki

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 01:10:38 PM »
ScoobieKW, thank you, but for me the stereo on SVM is acceptable; I am looking for more details and transparency with NT4 (SVM sounds a bit nasal at times).
That Sony has 115db max SPL which can lead to distortion on some extremly loud shows.
The overall idea of M/S seems interesting, thanks again for the suggestion.
However finding an obvious upgrade for SVM is still unclear to me.
(Please excuse my poor English btw).

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 01:34:43 PM »
FYI, Studio Projects C4 capsules are compatible with the Rode NT4/5/55/6 series... The C4 hyper capsules are sold separately and are inexpensive. The C4 hyper sounds awesome on the Rode bodies, wish I still had my NT6 setup....
Neumann KM185mp OR DPA ST2015-> Grace Design Lunatec V2-> Tascam DR-100mkIII

Offline Toki

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 01:36:51 PM »
Thank you Javier, another + for NT4.

Offline carpa

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2011, 06:41:06 AM »
Hi all,

I'm also curious about rode nt4 for it's flexibility in terms of connections and powering.  Dsatz says it's fine fore close miking; what does this mean in terms of distance from the source?  One meter or two, less or more?
Thanks all
carpa

Offline DSatz

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2011, 09:59:22 AM »
How close is the "close" in "close miking"? Yes, I might think of one meter or thereabouts--but sometimes half of that or even less. When you're trying to pick up one direct source of sound in the presence of other sound sources, or to get an exaggerated clarity for one sound source, you'd use that approach.

My main concerns when choosing a microphone setup are the degree of clarity ("focus") and color that I can get, and the kind of "stereo image" I can get, when the recording is played back over a stereo pair of loudspeakers. With good cardioids you can get clear, colorful sound and also a clear, stable "stereo image"--one that lets the listener hear more or less where each individual sound source originally was, and that fills the "sound stage" between the speakers to whatever degree you prefer. Good cardioids can satisfy both appetites pretty well if they're in the right place.

If you want more color you can veer toward omni (using "wide cardioids" for example), or if you want more focus and precision of imaging you can veer in the opposite direction (e.g. supercardioids). The choice of pattern is part of your balancing act as an engineer. Sometimes it's even appropriate to go all the way to using a pair of omnis or of figure-8s, though I don't do so often.

When you use a pair of microphones for overall stereo recording, and those mikes are set up with a certain angle and distance between them and have a certain directional pattern, then there will be a predictable, definite relationship between the left-to-right distribution of the sound sources in the live event and what will seem to be their distribution in the playback over loudspeakers.

Different kinds of music have various "recording idioms" with them; these are more or less a matter of tradition and expectation derived from people's shared listening experience over decades. For example, it's possible to make stereo recordings so that the instruments or voices appear to be coming right out of your loudspeakers. That sounds fine for a few kinds of music but not most others. So that's something that we're all more or less aware of--maybe not always on a conscious level when we're just enjoying a recording as listeners, but as engineers it helps to be conscious of it.

And I'm just saying that a coincident pair of cardioids angled at 90° is at one extreme of the useful spectrum--a setup that's mainly good at picking up an extremely wide arc of direct sound sources, such as an entire semicircle around the mike. But when you record a concert from a position in the audience, the entire stage width is much less than 180° so in playback, all the direct sound sources tend to sound as if they're coming from center or nearly so.

It's a bold statement to manufacture a microphone like the NT 4, but bold statements can be based on careful reasoning--or they can be based on acting as if you're sure of something whether you have evidence for it or not. This particular "microphone geometry" does have its uses, but they are somewhat specialized and you need to determine how well they match your needs, is all I'm saying.

--best regards
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 06:41:49 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Toki

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Re: Is it worth moving from Rode SVM to Rode NT4?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2011, 12:40:20 PM »
Well, I have tested both mics in a store with some commercial recording played thru cheap concert acoustics.
These mics sound very, I mean it - very different from each other, and I am totally unable to judge which one is superior in terms of sound quality. I'll keep my long-time reliable SVM until I find something radically better at affordable price.
Thanks again everyone for the discussion!

 

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