Topic: Mic suggestions for a newbie

[sparko]

I'm totally new to taping and I already read a lot thru the boards here. Since English is not my native language, some posts are more confusing than clearing things up.

I do have a Tascam DR-07 MkII Recorder and recently recorded my first show with internal mics. For the very first try I'm very pleased with the result as I expected the recorder mics to do a worse job than they actually did.

So far what I found out for myself is, in order to tape (mostly) rock music (which includes classic, indie, alternative, so in general the basic guitar bass and drums) in both small and big venues, I should opt for cardioid mics (to focus on the music rather than getting too much chatter). My budget isn't very big and so I came across the Church CA-11 or CA-14 (what's the actual difference / advantage?) and I also should tell, that I'd like to go with a setup in a more stealthy way. This is not because of the musicians don't wanna get taped, but I'm rather a lazy person and don't like to carry around too much gear while seeing a show from the audience, which especially in small venues often ends up right in the middle of GA - so any stealthy hat setup is preferred. Additionally, if I do have access to other spots, I mostly carry around a DSLR and do my job, so I need my hands free for that and wanna avoid too much EQ to setup.

So looking at the price range the CA-11/14 are at, are there any other cardioid mics I should look at? What else do I need to get? I know I need power for the mics, but I'm not sure whether to grab a simple battery box or a preamp? What do I need to know / think about for choosing battery box or preamp?

Any other suggestions for a newbie? Something I totally forgot to include in my thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
Daniela

[ScotK]

The Church mics are generally considered one of the best deals around for the money. The CA-14s are a bit better and big larger than the CA-11s. You can get the CA-11s with interchangeable caps so you can run omnis or cardoids.  A pre-amp will give you best results (might as well stick with the CA 9100.9200,Ugly), although at least a battery box is pretty much a necessity if you are going to tape anything loud.
good luck

scot

[colinw]

Welcome to the world of taping, glad you have the interest to record shows.
I have the exact same tascam recorder. I started with (and still use) a pair of Church Audio CA14 mics. I have both the cardioid and omni pattern microphones. I use the cardioids mostly but have recorded a few things with the omnis. I am sure I am simplifying things, but basically the cardioids are more focused on what is directly in front of the mics and don't capture as much of the 360 degree ambiance. This is good to lower the talking or crowd noise if that is an issue. The Omnis tend to pick up more of everything around which seems a more natural sound. I have been very happy with both.
Chris Church hand makes the mics in Canada and I have had no issues. He build them himself though so make sure to understand there is a significant lead time between order and delivery. In my opinion the wait is worth it. The cost and performance have made me very happy since I started using them a year ago.

I use a Church battery box. Very simple little box that uses a 9v battery to help power the mics for loud concerts and recording situations. I just got a preamp and I will start using that now, as by all accounts it will improve the overall sound. For my recordings so far I have just used the Church mics > battery box > Tascam dr07mkii, then set levels on the Tascam. I record in 24 bit/48Khz, and then adjust  in post processing by boosting volumn, normalizing, etc before transferring to FLAC.

The setup I have (and you're looking at) is low cost, and provides great quality in my opinion. Very easy to get into venues, and easy to use as well.

Have fun!!

[chinariderstl]

Another option in that price- and size-range are the Audio Technica AT853's.  They are pretty dope.  I was lucky enough to grab a mint pair in the Yard Sale (YS) on this site for cheap, I believe $130 US.  They were modified by Darktrain with the 4.7k mod and terminated to a stereo mini-plug.  They only need Plug-in-Power (PIP), not Phantom Power.

You can view a picture of them here.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=156090.msg1971696

I believe Sound Professionals also sells a pair.  I believe they are the SP-CMC-4U's below.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U

Some people prefer the Church Audio mics, some the Audio-Technica's.  I suppose it's a matter of taste.  I'd listen to some recordings on the Live Music Archive (LMA) and see if you have a personal preference to the sound and feel of one over the other.

Also, Jon (Stoppable) at Naiant makes some killer on-the-cheap omni's that sound good as hell in my opinion.  You can read up on those below.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157974.msg1991324

Here's the link.  Jon also make Littleboxes and Tinyboxs, a lot of people around here swear by them.  I know I love my Littlebox.

http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphones.html

Other than that, I'd check out the YS every now and then and see if you can't get something on-the-cheap.  All of the mics I have, I've gotten through the YS and couldn't be happier.

HTH

[adrianf74]

I use a Church battery box. Very simple little box that uses a 9v battery to help power the mics for loud concerts and recording situations. I just got a preamp and I will start using that now, as by all accounts it will improve the overall sound. For my recordings so far I have just used the Church mics > battery box > Tascam dr07mkii, then set levels on the Tascam. I record in 24 bit/48Khz, and then adjust  in post processing by boosting volumn, normalizing, etc before transferring to FLAC.

Really? 

I think I've owned pretty much everything Chris has made over the past three years (except for the CA-11's) and think a few other have stated as much as well but I'll repeat what I know to be a fact: any of these small preamps will NOT IMPROVE the sound; it just makes it "easier" to supply the right amount of juice to the mics to record at the level your deck is set at.  A battery box will be more than sufficient for most loud rock/pop shows.  Depending on the preamps in the recorder (I use a Sony PCM-M10), you might not need a separate preamp as the deck has a pretty clean one in it.  Small preamps are more susceptible to cell phone interference/hits as well (I've had this happen many times during great captures).  I can't recall my mics getting a "hit" with a batter box - ever.  In fact, I've gone "backwards" in a way and only run with a battery box because there is very little that can "go wrong" when I'm recording a show.  An M10, battery box and my B3 mics are probably the smallest "decent sounding" low-profile rig out there.

But back to the OP's question...

I can't speak for the Tascam deck in question but I think the preamp on it isn't that noisy from the line-in perspective (but someone better versed can correct me on this).  I came from an (Edirol) Roland R-09 which was pretty noisy but more than tolerable on line-in and I'm sure technology has grown in leaps and bounds since 2008. 

For mics, I've run both CA-14 cards and omnis.  While the CA-14's are quite "stealthable" they are a little bigger than the CA-11's.  I've heard recordings done with the CA-11 and CA-14 and they're not "that far" apart.  The CA-11's surely don't get enough credit around here and having the ability to change caps on the fly is always a bonus.  There may be times where you'll want to run omnis vs. cards and it saves you having to bring two sets of mics with you.

The AT853's are similarly sized to the CA-14's.   They're good mics as well and, depending on the model, allow you to switch caps (which are becoming harder to find).

As Chris builds everything by hand, expect a 4-to-6 week lead time.   Contact him first to find out what the build time is because sometimes it'll be considerably less depending on what he's building and when.   I use his CA-Ugly Battery Box and it's a great little device.

That's my $0.02.

[sparko]

Thanks a lot for all your tips and info!

I already stumbled across the delivery time fact and actually that's not that much of a problem for me as I live in Europe and would need to get them to a friend in USA, to save me some shipping cost. So it takes time one way or the other
Of course I will listen thru several tapes and shows to see, what mic setups sound nicer to my ears, which surely is a very personal choice I suppose. I personally prefer less crowd noise (still ask myself why people spend money on tickets and then chat nonstop for two hours....) and more music, that's why I guess, cards are the better fit for me. Experimenting with omnis might become of interest somewhat later.

Thanks to adrianf,  stating that a preamp won't make the sound actually _better_. I don't have a problem playing around finding the right setup and afterwards postprocessing the recording a bit more, which I do anyway. So if a battery box does the job for less cost in first place that'd be great. I'm just starting and don't wanna spend too much at once.

Thanks also to chinariderstl for providing all the links, I will surely check out your suggestions.

Thanks again,
Daniela

[adrianf74]

Hey Daniela,

Great to be of any help when I can.  I've been recording shows since July '92 and have run all sorts of equipment along the way.  A battery box is more than sufficient for what you'll be using it for.   A few people in these parts have also told me that running a "smaller" setup means there's less of a chance of things going wrong.  You know your battery box isn't working because you'll get no levels via line-in. 

The CA-14's, CA-11's and AT853's are all "good mics."  I'd strongly suggest looking at the CA-11's as they're more "budget friendly" and having swappable caps might also be of use.  I'd also consider posting an In Search Of (ISO) for the CA-11's in the Yard because someone might have a pair sitting around that are underutilized. 

All the best.

[nihilistic0]

I'll second the AT853's. I've been using them for about 6 years now, and they've treated me well in a variety of situations. Church mics are good too, but I generally prefer the sound of the AT's.  You'd probably want to get the 3-wire or 4.7k or w/e mod done so they can handle higher SPL, though.

[yates7592]

Small preamps are more susceptible to cell phone interference/hits as well (I've had this happen many times during great captures).  I can't recall my mics getting a "hit" with a batter box - ever.  In fact, I've gone "backwards" in a way and only run with a battery box because there is very little that can "go wrong" when I'm recording a show.  An M10, battery box and my B3 mics are probably the smallest "decent sounding" low-profile rig out there.

Going off-topic here, sorry, but is this really true? I have had several cellphone hits using a small preamp as well, but I don't know where the weak link in my system was. Why does a BB prevent the interference? If this is true then I will go back to the BB I already have and ditch the preamp!

[sckofelng]

I don't know what the others here think but everytime I listen to recordings with the CA-14 and CA-11 (especially the cardioids) plugged into a preamp (doesnt matter if 9000, 9100 or 9200) into Flash recorders the sound gets weird to me. Also this does not seem to happen when the omni caps are being used. I've heard several recordings of the CA-11 / CA-14 (cardioids and omnis) either with the CA Battery Box or straight into Flash recorders (iRivers, Edirol R09 / R05 and Sony's PCM-M10) and it sounded very close to some of the Soundprofessionals. Anybody here has the same impression or even has an explanation for this? I'd love to know.

[LikeASong]

I don't know what the others here think but everytime I listen to recordings with the CA-14 and CA-11 (especially the cardioids) plugged into a preamp (doesnt matter if 9000, 9100 or 9200) into Flash recorders the sound gets weird to me. Also this does not seem to happen when the omni caps are being used. I've heard several recordings of the CA-11 / CA-14 (cardioids and omnis) either with the CA Battery Box or straight into Flash recorders (iRivers, Edirol R09 / R05 and Sony's PCM-M10) and it sounded very close to some of the Soundprofessionals. Anybody here has the same impression or even has an explanation for this? I'd love to know.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.

[sckofelng]

That would be what I was already thinking about, just need someone to confirm it. Thanks for the info!

[F.O.Bean]

Im grabbing a Battery Box AND A CA 9100. Both have their own uses

[John Willett]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.

It depends on what you mean by a "battery box".

If you mean a battery powered 48V phantom power supply - the you are correct.

But your mic. will still have to go through a pre-amp. of some sort, even if it's just the one in the recorder - and that will have its own colouration.

A high quality external pre. would likely add less than the internal one.

[sckofelng]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.

It depends on what you mean by a "battery box".

If you mean a battery powered 48V phantom power supply - the you are correct.

But your mic. will still have to go through a pre-amp. of some sort, even if it's just the one in the recorder - and that will have its own colouration.

A high quality external pre. would likely add less than the internal one.

Honestly, from all recordings I've heard, the iRiver seems to do a much better colouration job than the preamps, that's just my impression after hearing many recordings with different mics (SP-CMC-4U, SP-CMC-8, CA-11, CA-14 and a few others). Would love to know what others think.