Topic: Mic suggestions for a newbie

[Church-Audio]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but...

Preamps add their own tone/coloration to the sound, battery boxes don't.

It depends on what you mean by a "battery box".

If you mean a battery powered 48V phantom power supply - the you are correct.

But your mic. will still have to go through a pre-amp. of some sort, even if it's just the one in the recorder - and that will have its own colouration.

A high quality external pre. would likely add less than the internal one.

Honestly, from all recordings I've heard, the iRiver seems to do a much better colouration job than the preamps, that's just my impression after hearing many recordings with different mics (SP-CMC-4U, SP-CMC-8, CA-11, CA-14 and a few others). Would love to know what others think.

My 9200 preamp for example is FLAT from 20hz to 60khz. That's how it is designed so that it does not alter the sound. The iriver imo will alter the sound of your recording way more then one of my preamps ever will.

[sckofelng]

I think the combination of iRiver and one of your preamps does not work well because they both have their own kind of altering the sound, and this combined equals in a (for my taste) weird sound. Could this be the case? Please correct me if not.

[bryonsos]

Daniela,

Welcome! I'd just like to add that since you've mentioned that you 1) will generally be on the GA floor 2) want to be low profile and 3) take photos and move around a bit, you should seriously consider some miniature omnis. On the floor, you'll generally be where the sound is loudest, so any crowd noise will be overwhelmed by the amplification of the PA. Cardioids are more directional, but if the crowd in front of you is rowdy, you will still get them on your recording. Since you want to be able to move around a bit, omnis will be much more forgiving of the movement. Since cardioids are directional, as you move, you will be constantly changing where your mics are pointed. This will result in a "phasing" of the recording as one mic or the other changes direction and "hears" a different angle of the PA. The Church omnis (11 or 14) are more than fine for this application, but for a bit more money you could go to the Countryman B3s and get a far superior result. Paired with a battery box, or a Church preamp, you would make great tapes that you'd be proud of. I have no idea what sckofelng is talking about with saying the Church preamps sound weird, they are incredibly neutral sounding, and don't color the sound at all IMHO. My best guess is that he is used to hearing recordings that are colored, and hence finds the truly neutral sound as weird. My low profile rig is B3>CA-ugly>M10 and if I had to sell all of my gear for financial reasons but wanted to keeping taping, this is the rig I would keep.

[sckofelng]

You must be a fan of omni mics I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.

[bryonsos]

You must be a fan of omni mics I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.

None taken nor any intended. Yes, I am a preacher at the church of the omni (pun intended!). IMHO too many tapers are afraid of omnis despite the fact that they're the king of mics. Figure 8s and omnis are the most natural and pure sounding mics out there, and the "crowd avoidance" ability of cardioids is routinely overstated in these parts. 

[acidjack]

You must be a fan of omni mics I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.

None taken nor any intended. Yes, I am a preacher at the church of the omni (pun intended!). IMHO too many tapers are afraid of omnis despite the fact that they're the king of mics. Figure 8s and omnis are the most natural and pure sounding mics out there, and the "crowd avoidance" ability of cardioids is routinely overstated in these parts. 

I'll let Bryon continue to be the advocate for all things omni, but the other thing I would add to this is that the "natural" sound of omnis in the micro/stealth mic category is in many cases vastly superior to that of similar micro cardiods.  A tiny DPA, Nevaton or Countryman omni mic can easily sound as good as a $3500 pair of Schoeps if used right. The same cannot be said, in general, of micro cardiods (lightning can strike once or twice, but in general this is true).  As a matter of engineering, it's apparently much easier to make an HQ mic that is tiny if it's an omni than if it's a cardiod. 

Chris' small cardiod mics are among the best in their category, but his small omnis, if you can get up close on GA floors especially, are really going to sound nice.  I just ran some onstage as a backup with my Schoeps MK5 (which also have an omni setting) and they held their own.  Similarly, give a listen to this Kimock show: http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Steve+Kimock%22+AND+date%3A2011-11-04%2A

One guy had CA-14 omnis onstage. I had a pair of $1500 AKGs on the stack.  Another guy had a $6500 pair of Neumanns running as hypers another 10 or so ft behind me.  See what you think.

[F.O.Bean]

You must be a fan of omni mics I said that I did not notice this weird sound when CA omnis are being used with the preamps. Almost all cases of that were when cardioid configs were being used. Don't want to offend you, just want to clear up what I think so noone misunderstands me.

None taken nor any intended. Yes, I am a preacher at the church of the omni (pun intended!). IMHO too many tapers are afraid of omnis despite the fact that they're the king of mics. Figure 8s and omnis are the most natural and pure sounding mics out there, and the "crowd avoidance" ability of cardioids is routinely overstated in these parts. 

I'll let Bryon continue to be the advocate for all things omni, but the other thing I would add to this is that the "natural" sound of omnis in the micro/stealth mic category is in many cases vastly superior to that of similar micro cardiods.  A tiny DPA, Nevaton or Countryman omni mic can easily sound as good as a $3500 pair of Schoeps if used right. The same cannot be said, in general, of micro cardiods (lightning can strike once or twice, but in general this is true).  As a matter of engineering, it's apparently much easier to make an HQ mic that is tiny if it's an omni than if it's a cardiod. 

Chris' small cardiod mics are among the best in their category, but his small omnis, if you can get up close on GA floors especially, are really going to sound nice.  I just ran some onstage as a backup with my Schoeps MK5 (which also have an omni setting) and they held their own.  Similarly, give a listen to this Kimock show: http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Steve+Kimock%22+AND+date%3A2011-11-04%2A

One guy had CA-14 omnis onstage. I had a pair of $1500 AKGs on the stack.  Another guy had a $6500 pair of Neumanns running as hypers another 10 or so ft behind me.  See what you think.

Believe it or not, but I like the CA14 Omnis the best

[bryonsos]

I have to agree with Bean, although I really like the fat bottom of the 414s. Better placement and they would win.

[adrianf74]

I'll throw my $0.05 into the conversation.

I've run all sorts of omnis and cardioids over the years.  I've run the original Core Sound Binaurals back in the mid '90s.  I've run "Squidly-Diddly" (which didn't sound _THAT_ bad all flaming aside).  I've run SP-CMC-8's (AT-933 cardioids) circa 2003.   I've run Church Audio CAFS omnis, CA-14 omnis and CA-14 cards.  I've also run DPA 4061's and Countryman B3's.  I've run various battery boxes including the SP-SB-3 and CA Ugly Battery Box as well as preamps (9100 and Ugly) and am back on a CA Ugly Battery Box and am sticking with the B3's and am looking at one other option for cards.

I've made some killer recordings with the CA-14 omnis (and some okay ones with the cards).  I've made some decent recordings with the DPA 4061's and I've also made one good recording with the B3's (I'm dealing with a lot on the homefront which isn't allowing me to hit a lot of shows).  I love the sound of the CA-14 omnis and would love to have something with their sound in the form factor of a DPA or B3.  The CAFS omnis aren't bad but they don't really hold their own against the B3/4061 options but they are considerably less expensive. 

I would say the 9100 colours the sound slightly whereas the Ugly Preamp and (obviously) the Ugly Battery Box didn't.

If you can live with the size of the CA-14 omnis, you'll be very happy with recordings made with them and a battery box.   If you want something a little more expensive and have the ability to get them modded/terminated in 1/8", the B3's might be worth considering.  I find the DPA "sound" too bright for my ears and after recording many shows with them, I never really "liked" them all that much.

Again, mic choice is a pretty personal choice.  With any of these mics/power options that I've mentioned, I think everyone around here would agree that the results would be decent and that the choices are pretty tried and true.

[Church-Audio]

The ugly and the 9100 are exactly the same circuit minus the high pass filter. they are identicle performance wise.

[hoppedup]

I'm listening to a show I taped last night with CA-14 omnis. I upgraded to CA-14 from CA-11 about three years ago. I've made really good recordings with the cardioids as well. I use them with a CA-9100, though I'd take the 9200 now because I tape a lot of quieter acoustic stuff. These mics never cease to amaze with the quality of recording you can get at this price point. I just assumed when I bought them I'd eventually move on to more expensive mics. I never have. If you catch them on sale you can probably unload them later in the Yard Sale at the same price. I'm in the U.S. and I waited 12 weeks for each of the orders I made from Church-Audio. YMMV.

[acidjack]

I have to agree with Bean, although I really like the fat bottom of the 414s. Better placement and they would win.

oh, I also agree. I thought the onstage CA-14s were the best pull.

[sparko]

I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back sooner, but I had a damn virus and needed to reinstall my computer (and had some work to do).

Again, many thanks for all your input. I recently flipped thru several recordings I had and thought a lot about my photo job and I settled for the chosen cards and just ordered from Chris with a battery box.

I found myself taking pictures recently and figured out, that my movement is not too much (maybe 3 feet or so mostly) so in case I tape a show that I do photo as well (which aren't in stadiums usually), I can either keep my spot or, especially when I know the band very well,  use a little stand ON stage that I can plug onto my photostand (I'm figuring that one out currently). I will also tape shows where I don't move at all, and I prefer not to stand between the die hards in the FOS areas *g so I don't expect a too rowdy crowd. As I said, I might later check for omins as well, but for the shows that are coming up next on my schedule, I think the cards are a great option and so I used the 25% sale from Chris - was a bit too late for Black Friday, tho.
Money is rare, so I think it's not the worst choice to start with!

[F.O.Bean]

Good movie imo

[zupanic]

one of the most interesting threads I've read here. I currently have ca11 cards and I'm asking Santa for the omni caps