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Author Topic: Sony PCM-D100  (Read 177642 times)

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2013, 10:24:20 PM »
Because they are twice the fun.  ;D ;D

Offline Amir

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2013, 04:28:44 AM »
Why wouldn't Sony put XLR inputs on their highest-quality portable digital recorder  ???
That is also my $64,000 question. Not that we should necessarily know the answer to that, but I'm wondering why I should not get, say, the Zoom H6 instead of the D100 when the D100 doesn't provide XLR/phantom power and is quite expensive. I love Sony's built quality, S/PDIF and 32GB of built-in storage, but excluding XLR/phantom/multi-tracking  with such a price tag is, IMO, rather unconventional. At any rate, I just want to know if a relatively cheap solution exists to give the D100 XLR/phantom power support.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2013, 09:02:37 AM »
Why wouldn't Sony put XLR inputs on their highest-quality portable digital recorder  ???

Because it has been designed as a high quality recorder for use with the internal microphones.

And - uniquely - it also has an optical digital input so you can use an external high quality mic. pre. or mixer (eg: AETA MIXY) if you want high quality recording with external mics.

Also - the size of an XLR socket will increase the size of the recorder - phantom powering will reduce battery life.

I am sure that Sony well researched the intended market before putting it into production - if adding XLRs, balanced mic. inputs and phantom powering would have increased the price by 50% (which is likely), then I'm not surprised Sony left them out if the intended market did not require them as an essential.

Offline John Willett

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2013, 09:07:33 AM »
Why wouldn't Sony put XLR inputs on their highest-quality portable digital recorder  ???
That is also my $64,000 question. Not that we should necessarily know the answer to that, but I'm wondering why I should not get, say, the Zoom H6 instead of the D100 when the D100 doesn't provide XLR/phantom power and is quite expensive. I love Sony's built quality, S/PDIF and 32GB of built-in storage, but excluding XLR/phantom/multi-tracking  with such a price tag is, IMO, rather unconventional. At any rate, I just want to know if a relatively cheap solution exists to give the D100 XLR/phantom power support.

Quality - it's all a balance.

Adding balanced mic. pre-amps, phantom powering and XLRs costs money - leaving them out if you consider most people won't use them means you can put more money into the audio quality and the internal mic. quality.

Offline DigiGal

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2013, 09:16:31 AM »
It's actually laughable and inexcusable for a recorder of this size, quality and price that there are no XLR inputs.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #95 on: October 23, 2013, 10:15:16 AM »
Sony's decision to not equip the D100 with XLR inputs strikes me as a rather bold marketing decision, IMO, given the number of existing two channel recorders that have them at a much lower price point (Olympus DR100, Tascam DR100, Roland...).  The pricing even puts it above Tascam's DR680 8 channel recorder with XLR inputs.  It appears to me that the D100 has a significant price premium above over two channel recorders. 

What is Sony thinking? 

Sony's marketing release for the D100 seems more generally aimed at as an all in one recorder with a minor mention that it has digital input.  Looking at their website, it generally seems to stress high definition recording as an overall product line theme.  http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/high-resolution-audio

If Sony has created a truly superior all in one solution that doesn't require a separate preamp and microphones, and if the D100 really does offer superior recording because of the high definition format and converters, then their pricing starts to make sense.  The proof will be in how it actually performs and then more informed decisions can be made about it. 

But I'm not going to be the first guy to run out and buy one at $999 or even $799.   


Offline H₂O

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #96 on: October 23, 2013, 04:32:37 PM »
As I stated earlier anything over $500 is too much IMO

I can't see myself ever running the internal mics with all the other FAR superior mics that I own - same goes with the pre-amps - although I am sure the mics and possibly the preamps are probably the best for a recorder for this price or less

I was hoping for a DSD replacement for my MR-1 at some point but at this price it definitely isn't in the ballpark - and since Sony added this feature I do have hope that an M10 replacement may have this capability at a reasonable price

This looks like a cross between a D1 and D50 and is priced accordingly

« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 04:42:48 PM by H₂O »
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Offline Amir

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #97 on: October 23, 2013, 04:48:26 PM »
Sony's decision to not equip the D100 with XLR inputs strikes me as a rather bold marketing decision, IMO, given the number of existing two channel recorders that have them at a much lower price point (Olympus DR100, Tascam DR100, Roland...).  The pricing even puts it above Tascam's DR680 8 channel recorder with XLR inputs.  It appears to me that the D100 has a significant price premium above over two channel recorders. 

What is Sony thinking? 

Sony's marketing release for the D100 seems more generally aimed at as an all in one recorder with a minor mention that it has digital input.  Looking at their website, it generally seems to stress high definition recording as an overall product line theme.  http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/high-resolution-audio

If Sony has created a truly superior all in one solution that doesn't require a separate preamp and microphones, and if the D100 really does offer superior recording because of the high definition format and converters, then their pricing starts to make sense.  The proof will be in how it actually performs and then more informed decisions can be made about it. 

But I'm not going to be the first guy to run out and buy one at $999 or even $799.
In retrospect, Sony PCM-D50 was more or less reasonably priced and its internal mics were great. They lacked base and were sensitive to pops and wind, but they could do the job very well. However, it was not uncommon to hear complaints about the D50's lack of XLR and phantom power. Now here comes the D100 which is significantly more expensive, offers 32GB of internal disk space, lacks XLR/phantom power/multi-channel support, and can record high-definition audio. So, IMO, the only thing which can or should justify its purchase would be the performance of its internal mics. And by that I mean the internal mics should truly outperform the XY mics of, say, the Zoom H6 in order for such a recorder with such a price tag to find its way into recorders' pockets. As far as ENG/interview settings are concerned, a recorder without XLR support has never been the star of the show unless, for instance, it does a great job of recording in mono and, like many ENG mics, proves not to be oversensitive to handling by interviewees. Sony has mentioned ENG as one of the selling points of the D100, and I'm more eager to see it tested under such circumstances.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 04:51:07 PM by Amir »

Offline Amir

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #98 on: October 24, 2013, 03:32:02 AM »
FYI, the D100 is now on B & H for preorder with a price tag of $799: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008089-REG/sony_pcm_d100_portable_stereo_field.html

Offline dogmusic

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2013, 08:55:51 AM »

This looks like a cross between a D1 and D50 and is priced accordingly

And the question is whether it is closer in quality to the D1 than the D50, i.e., is it a D1 without the analog VU meters? Are the preamps as good? Are the mics even better?

If the D100 is the direct D1 replacement, then it is a bargain at $799, since it has digital in, can record longer than the D1's measly 4GB limit, and does so in DSD format.
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Offline ghibliss

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2013, 01:52:36 PM »
Neither of these machines provide a digital input and they do not have removable storage media either.  For anyone wishing to record with an external a/d converter via a digital input this recorder is not an option.  The recorder has low battery life as well according to all of the reviews which I have read.  If DSD is the way to go then it is certainly an affordable option. 

Has anyone tried one of the machines out using DSD and reviewed the sound quality?
 

The Korg MR-1 (used) and MR-2 offer 24/192 and can be had for under $400 - Although I would never run 24/192 only DSD with any of these

Offline ghibliss

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2013, 02:15:26 PM »
For those that would like to read more about the inherent differences and benefits of PCM VS DSD you can read more at Wikipedia.  Apparently DSD does not have a clear cut advantage over PCM sound quality and actually has greater noise content at higher frequencies (20khz an up) than PCM.  I have not yet auditioned a DSD recorder so can not say first hand if they are in fact superior.  i plan on giving it a try and comparing it to 24/192 pcm using an external a/d input.  My current a/d provides -135 db s/n ratio which is significantly better performance than the recorder offers.  for this reason alone I feel it is worth staying with PCM 24/192 until something better rolls down the pike! 


DSD vs. PCM

There has been much controversy between proponents of DSD and PCM over which encoding system is superior. Professors Stanley Lipshitz and John Vanderkooy from the University of Waterloo, in Audio Engineering Society Convention Paper 5395 (2001), stated that 1-bit converters (as employed by DSD) are unsuitable for high-end applications due to their high distortion. Even 8-bit, four-times-oversampled PCM with noise shaping, proper dithering and half data rate of DSD has better noise floor and frequency response. However, in 2002, Philips published a convention paper arguing against this in Convention Paper 5616[dead link]. Lipshitz and Vanderkooy's paper has been criticized in detail by Professor Jamie Angus at an Audio Engineering Society presentation in Convention Paper 5619[dead link]. Lipshitz and Vanderkooy responded in Convention Paper 5620.

There are fundamental distortion mechanisms present in the conventional implementation of DSD.[17] These distortion mechanisms can be alleviated to some degree by using digital converters with a multibit design. Historically, state-of-the-art ADCs were based around sigma-delta modulation designs. Oversampling converters are frequently used in linear PCM formats, where the ADC output is subject to bandlimiting and dithering (Hawksford 1995). Many modern converters use oversampling and a multibit design. It has been suggested that bitstream digital audio techniques are theoretically inferior to multibit (PCM) approaches: J Robert Stuart notes,[18] "1-bit coding would be a totally unsuitable choice for a series of recordings that set out to identify the high-frequency content of musical instruments, despite claims for its apparent wide bandwidth. If it is unsuitable for recording analysis then we should also be wary of using it for the highest quality work."

When comparing a DSD and PCM recording of the same origin, the same number of channels and similar bandwidth/SNR, some still think that there are differences. A study conducted at the Erich-Thienhaus Institute in Detmold, Germany, seems to contradict this, concluding that "hardly any of the subjects could make a reproducible distinction between the two encoding systems. Hence it may be concluded that no significant differences are audible."[19]

In the popular Hi-Fi press, it had been suggested that linear PCM "creates [a] stress reaction in people", and that DSD "is the only digital recording system that does not [...] have these effects" (Hawksford 2001). This claim appears to originate from a 1980 article by Dr John Diamond entitled Human Stress Provoked by Digitalized Recordings.[20] The core of the claim that PCM (the only digital recording technique available at the time) recordings created a stress reaction rested on "tests" carried out using the pseudoscientific technique of Applied Kinesiology, for example by Dr Diamond at an AES 66th Convention (1980) presentation with the same title.[21] Diamond had previously used a similar technique to demonstrate that rock music was harmful due to the presence of the "stopped anapestic beat".[22] Dr Diamond's claims regarding digital audio were taken up by Mark Levinson, who asserted that while PCM recordings resulted in a stress reaction, DSD recordings did not.[23][24][25]

A double-blind subjective test between high resolution linear PCM (DVD-Audio) and DSD did not reveal a statistically significant difference.[26] Listeners involved in this test noted their great difficulty in hearing any difference between the two formats.

Offline H₂O

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2013, 04:52:09 PM »
The AD/DA converter used on the D100/MR-1/etc (most all BurrBrown AD/DA converters) first convert to DSD then convert to PCM for AD conversion and PCM > DSD > Analog

This is done to allow for noise shaping to help reduce the quantization error.

If you record in DSD you are bypassing the PCM processing and will also save yourself some space.  The 24/192 is derived from the 2.8Mhz DSD signal. 

There is no advantage to sound quality in recording to PCM 24/192 over DSD with this recorder
 
 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 06:15:18 PM by H₂O »
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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2013, 12:58:17 AM »
Sony's decision to not equip the D100 with XLR inputs strikes me as a rather bold marketing decision...

Since it has digital I/O you can add an outboard mic pre that has XLRs and 48 Phantom Power, like our Mic2496 V2 (http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php).
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 01:18:16 AM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline Amir

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Re: Sony PCM-D100
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2013, 02:46:30 AM »
Sony's decision to not equip the D100 with XLR inputs strikes me as a rather bold marketing decision...

Since it has digital I/O you can add an outboard mic pre that has XLRs and 48 Phantom Power, like our Mic2496 V2 (http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php).

That's indeed one of the most important advantages of the D100. However, adding something like, say, the Sound Devices USBPre 2, a USB battery and some cables to connect them to one another decreases the portability of the recorder. As such, as interesting and noise-free as this combination sounds (I might even go that route), it can no longer be called a truly portable recorder. As it's a Sony recorder, though, my hope is to get high-end converters and outstanding built-in mics from the D100 to justify the over-all loss of portability with USB mixers in the chain.

 

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