Topic: Omni caps effect on bass

[blu666z]

Never run these omni caps for AT ES943s yet.  How would that effect where I set my bass roll-off?  For the show I am thinking about usig these for, I will be running the battery box not phantom power.

-Kevin

[zhianosatch]

omnis will pick up more bass than directional patterns, so set your roll-off higher than normal. the HPF on my DPA power supply starts at 85 Hz.

[blu666z]

What about if its an outdoor show?  69Hz is where I used to run when I used the battery box all the time.  Think the next step was 85Hz.

-Kevin

[zhianosatch]

it depends on the show. most outdoor shows i attend have ludicrous amounts of bass... you have to make the call when you get there.
the next step is "95 Hz" on the sound pro battery box but that doesn't mean much. there have been threads about it. what's the next step in your recording chain after the battery box? gotta know that.

[blu666z]

D7

[BobW]

What to do with the P48 adapter ?
Does it have an HPF w/ switchable roll-off as well or must this be taken care of at the pre ?
Don't the es953's have a roll-off switch on the "body" or whatever they call that square thingy with the FET preamp in it ?

[Tim]

Okay, you have

omnis will pick up more bass than directional patterns

omni's are flatter lower but are not subject to the proximity effect like directional microphones are. so when taping up close or on stage omnis will actually record less bass information than a directional microphone.

[blu666z]

What to do with the P48 adapter ?
Does it have an HPF w/ switchable roll-off as well or must this be taken care of at the pre ?
Don't the es953's have a roll-off switch on the "body" or whatever they call that square thingy with the FET preamp in it ?

Are you talking about the power adapters used when using phantom power?  Those won't come into play here bc I am using a battery box rather than my UA-5.

-Kevin

[nic]

as someone who records alot of electronic music where there are serious bass tones/rumbles,
I have yet to run into a situation where I should have run a HPF.

what music are you guys recording where you need to run a HPF all the time?

[Brian]

as someone who records alot of electronic music where there are serious bass tones/rumbles,
I have yet to run into a situation where I should have run a HPF.

what music are you guys recording where you need to run a HPF all the time?

you must just love bass cause i use it all the time recording rock bands in small clubs. 

[nic]

as someone who records alot of electronic music where there are serious bass tones/rumbles,
I have yet to run into a situation where I should have run a HPF.

what music are you guys recording where you need to run a HPF all the time?

you must just love bass cause i use it all the time recording rock bands in small clubs. 

I do like bass(which I often find lacking in alot of recordings), but I also want the fullest frequency range possible on the master recording.
if a recording needs some eq to tone down the bass, then I will apply in post-production.
its MUCH easier to remove bass in post than it is to add bass!

also, usually, when people need to tone down bass, a HPF is usually the worst thing they could do.
a band-pass/notch filter works wonders...takes away the muddy/rumble but leaves the punch and clarity intact

[zhianosatch]

as someone who records alot of electronic music where there are serious bass tones/rumbles,
I have yet to run into a situation where I should have run a HPF.

what music are you guys recording where you need to run a HPF all the time?

cradle of filth

[zhianosatch]

and the more excess bass you decide to record in the field, the less of the rest of the range gets recorded. know what i mean? i don't want to handicap the meat of my tape by recording 100% of the chest-shaking black metal bs kick drum only to remove it later and bump up the real music... so, HPF it is.
DPA 4061s

[Brian]

what armen said is exactly why i run the hpf a lot. all that mud down there in <100Hz can really have an effect on the midrange and high frequencies if there is too much of it present.  i'd rather have clarity with attenuated bass than bass thumpage with a lack of clarity.  then again you tape a lot of electronic music and bass is important. i can definitely see and understand your reasonings.

edit: didn't notice it but i said " no attenuated", i meant just attenuated.

[Tim]

what are you listening on luvean? I didn't rolloff until I got a sub

[BobW]

Okay, you have

omnis will pick up more bass than directional patterns

omni's are flatter lower but are not subject to the proximity effect like directional microphones are. so when taping up close or on stage omnis will actually record less bass information than a directional microphone.

Not sure that I agree 100%
Definately with the Jenkliln disk.
Otherwise, bass seems to add with omnis, because it's less directional than the higher frquencies.

As always, it depends on many variables, YMMV

[Sean Gallemore]

When I ran the AT831s with a battery box I always ran the bass roll-off, and bass distortion is a common problem when the AT853/CMC-4s are run from battery power.

Since switching to phantom power, I don't use any HPF and I am super pleased with the results, ranging from raves, metal shows, and rock concerts.  Some might say it's bass heavy but I think it's just the warmness of the mp-2.

[macdaddy]

fwiw...

i use dpa 4060s...

line-in to a modSBM-1

never use the coresound bass-rolloff filter on the batt box (i don't think i even could running line-in)...

only time i need to adjust bass is in my wife's car, which ahs one of those bottom-heavy bose sound system...

my recordings sound great coming through my (modded) tube integrated amp -> klipsch speakers.

no rolloff needed or wanted.

[Tim]

you don't have to agree but it's a fact that omni's are not succeptable to the proximity effect

[Brian]

tim proximity effect and bass response are two different things.  you are right that omnis have no proximity effect. however BobW is right.  Omnis are much more bass responsive due to the omnidirectional nature of low end frequencies. Proximity effect is merely a term to describe when your sound gets more bass because your sound source(usually a voice) is right on top of the microphone.



Brian

[Tim]

yes, thanks Brian... I'm not very clear and misunderstood what he was saying.

[hexyjones]

Omnis are much more bass responsive due to the omnidirectional nature of low end frequencies

not sure I get that...the mics are more responsive because low frequencies are omnidirectional?

My theory: Perception...I think Omnis may sound bass heavy...because they are not picking up as much of the midrange - i.e. the frequencies that tend to be very directional.

A directional mic will pick up more of the directional frequencies...thus more mids and the perception that the tape has less bass...

[hexyjones]

Also - I'm trying to understand why Omnis would not be subject to proximity effect...?

Why not...are you sure?

[hexyjones]

and the more excess bass you decide to record in the field, the less of the rest of the range gets recorded. know what i mean? i don't want to handicap the meat of my tape by recording 100% of the chest-shaking black metal bs kick drum only to remove it later and bump up the real music... so, HPF it is.
DPA 4061s

No I don't know what you mean...I would think that analogy would work in the exact reverse...

The less bass you decide to record in the field...the less the rest of the range gets recorded...

If you cut bass - then raise levels...isn't it clear that you have reduced the recordings dynamic range???

[Brian]

well after reading this very interesting and sweet .pdf on bass frequencies i decided to post to it to the list.  check it out it's pretty cool!  however it mostly talks about home theatre systems so we are dealing with smaller sub-woofers than what you would normally get at a rock concert venue.  the bigger the subs the more power they can push thus louder low end.

http://www.dynacord.de/download/bassarrays03042003.pdf

VERY low frequencies are omnidirectional, but as you get higher in the spectrum they become slightly more directional.

I'll post something on proximity effect very soon

[Brian]

here is a link that explains proximity effect very well. as you can tell i'm too lazy to explain it all myself   but links are always useful for the site and its members in general

but here is the paragraph that sums it up much better than i could have typed it off the top of my head.

"When you get close to a cardioid or bidirectional mic, the bass is exaggerated. Why does this happen? First we have to examine what is making the microphone diaphragm move in the first place.

Pressure Gradients <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< BINGO!

The diaphragm will move when the pressure behind it is different from the pressure in front. If we have an omni mic, the pressure behind the diaphragm is always the same because it is enclosed. On a cardioid or bidirectional mic, the pressure on the back changes just as the front pressure does, but a bit later, because the sound waves have further to go, traveling around the diaphragm, and through whatever delay structure is there to provide a cardioid pattern."

http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/tech_background/TE-20/Proximity_Effect.html

word

Brian

edit: the bingo part and bolded text

[mmmatt]

and the more excess bass you decide to record in the field, the less of the rest of the range gets recorded. know what i mean? i don't want to handicap the meat of my tape by recording 100% of the chest-shaking black metal bs kick drum only to remove it later and bump up the real music... so, HPF it is.
DPA 4061s

No I don't know what you mean...I would think that analogy would work in the exact reverse...

The less bass you decide to record in the field...the less the rest of the range gets recorded...

If you cut bass - then raise levels...isn't it clear that you have reduced the recordings dynamic range???

I understand exactly wht he is saying.  My first set of mics had no rolloff, and I would watch my meeters,  record a show at about 95% of peak.  Then I would take it home, do my post production using notch, or eq and look at the file again to find it was now at less than 50% of peak.  His point is that you are using the bass exclusivly to fill the dynamic range, and the rest of the music... that which you hear and not feel, is suffering.  I now have mics (akg 391's) with a 75hz roll off and it allows me to maximize the dynamic range with the bulk of the music.  I run mine almost all of the time.  There are many different mics, and I think we all need to record for our own ears, but his point is a valid one.

Matt

Matt

[hexyjones]

and the more excess bass you decide to record in the field, the less of the rest of the range gets recorded. know what i mean? i don't want to handicap the meat of my tape by recording 100% of the chest-shaking black metal bs kick drum only to remove it later and bump up the real music... so, HPF it is.
DPA 4061s

No I don't know what you mean...I would think that analogy would work in the exact reverse...

The less bass you decide to record in the field...the less the rest of the range gets recorded...

If you cut bass - then raise levels...isn't it clear that you have reduced the recordings dynamic range???

I understand exactly wht he is saying.  My first set of mics had no rolloff, and I would watch my meeters,  record a show at about 95% of peak.  Then I would take it home, do my post production using notch, or eq and look at the file again to find it was now at less than 50% of peak.  His point is that you are using the bass exclusivly to fill the dynamic range, and the rest of the music... that which you hear and not feel, is suffering.  I now have mics (akg 391's) with a 75hz roll off and it allows me to maximize the dynamic range with the bulk of the music.  I run mine almost all of the time.  There are many different mics, and I think we all need to record for our own ears, but his point is a valid one.

Matt

Matt

I think your experiment proves my point...you are removing the most dynamic element from the music...leaving you with 50% - So you are not maximizing anything - the roll off is reducing and minimizing the dynamic range of the music.

And its the frequencies that you can't hear - the subsonics - the feel...I want that...some dont...

I generally miss the bass...my friend runs that damn roll off on his 381s - and I always hear it...no bottom...my theory is people with subwoofers and systems that are set up goofy - think they have too much bass...I've never heard anything that had too much bass on a good high resolution 2 speaker system...

Been awhile since I fooled with high-end audio...but it seems like the audiophiles were against Sub woofs...

[zhianosatch]

and the more excess bass you decide to record in the field, the less of the rest of the range gets recorded. know what i mean? i don't want to handicap the meat of my tape by recording 100% of the chest-shaking black metal bs kick drum only to remove it later and bump up the real music... so, HPF it is.
DPA 4061s

No I don't know what you mean...I would think that analogy would work in the exact reverse...

The less bass you decide to record in the field...the less the rest of the range gets recorded...

If you cut bass - then raise levels...isn't it clear that you have reduced the recordings dynamic range???

I understand exactly wht he is saying.  My first set of mics had no rolloff, and I would watch my meeters,  record a show at about 95% of peak.  Then I would take it home, do my post production using notch, or eq and look at the file again to find it was now at less than 50% of peak.  His point is that you are using the bass exclusivly to fill the dynamic range, and the rest of the music... that which you hear and not feel, is suffering.  I now have mics (akg 391's) with a 75hz roll off and it allows me to maximize the dynamic range with the bulk of the music.  I run mine almost all of the time.  There are many different mics, and I think we all need to record for our own ears, but his point is a valid one.

Matt

Matt

I think your experiment proves my point...you are removing the most dynamic element from the music...leaving you with 50% - So you are not maximizing anything - the roll off is reducing and minimizing the dynamic range of the music.

And its the frequencies that you can't hear - the subsonics - the feel...I want that...some dont...

I generally miss the bass...my friend runs that damn roll off on his 381s - and I always hear it...no bottom...my theory is people with subwoofers and systems that are set up goofy - think they have too much bass...I've never heard anything that had too much bass on a good high resolution 2 speaker system...

Been awhile since I fooled with high-end audio...but it seems like the audiophiles were against Sub woofs...

i was ready to reply with something to the effect of this post yesterday, but i didn't feel like finishing... anyway.
so you reduce the dynamic range by a few dB. big deal! (and in my first post, i meant frequency range, not dynamic range, so sorry for the confusion... but both are relevant). it's more than worth it.
if you have a playback system capable of reproducing the low end i hear at my shows, heavy shows at which we can't use 391s , then more power to you. but how many home systems in the world can do that? not many, and not yours or mine.

[BobW]

I'n not an expert on this at all.
I made my conclusion after reading about the Jecklin and Schneider disks.
It spoke of the additive nature of low-freq. with omnis.

Right about proximity effect, happened all the time with broadcast mics like the EV-664s.
Announcers loved to get a little extra bass boom into their voices, for faux machismo.
They would "eat the mic" while talking, to pump up their boominess.

I would assume that a proximity effect exists for nearness to the stack, as well.

[hexyjones]

Hah - I've been playing with a 664 all week...nice sounding mic for it's age...

[BobW]

Hah - I've been playing with a 664 all week...nice sounding mic for it's age...

Those small plugs on the fin can be removed to adjust the low-end response/ proximity-effect.
There was a gold-plated edition of it as well.
Great mic for what it does.