Topic: Starter help: DAT or MD or HD recorder?

[MSTaper]

Thanks a bunch, guys. Got a little technical on me there at the end, but that's cool.

Sounds like all three have their pros and cons. I checked out the Nomad and it looks pretty good for the price. Mini Discs seem to be about the most reasonable price wise. I see the point about a used DAT, like the D-7 here, but a new one is out of the question.

Darrin, I really don't have a clear idea what I would do at this point. I would likely begin my trying to tape some local bands here and if I want to take it further, try and hit some other shows. However, I know one taper at this point and that's it. Don't know if I'd approach strangers at a show and ask to hook up to their equipment. But if that's common, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

I don't need anything elaborate to begin with. But I'd apparently be looking at some type of used DAT or new mini disc or hard disc, a good but reasonably priced mic, mike preamp and mic stand from what I see. Toss in assorted cables and such and it can get pricy. But I'm stating the obvious.

Brian, thanks for posting all the pros/cons of the different recording options. Very helpfu, but at the same time, makes the decision that much harder Thanks for being helpful to a newbie who's trying to learn a lot in a short period of time. rWc

[Brian Skalinder]

On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.

How does MD manage a 16-bit / 44.1 or 48 kHz optical signal?  Presumably it still applies ATRAC, but...how?  Are you sure it can handle that feed?  Or can it only accept an optical feed from another MD using ATRAC?

[Brian Skalinder]

Updated the original post based on your feedback, everyone - did I get it right?  Forget anything?  More to add?

[pfife]

Darrin, I really don't have a clear idea what I would do at this point. I would likely begin my trying to tape some local bands here and if I want to take it further, try and hit some other shows. However, I know one taper at this point and that's it. Don't know if I'd approach strangers at a show and ask to hook up to their equipment. But if that's common, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, its pretty common- the term is called "patching" - a lot of the time, people will have maybe an extra output of some sort from their preamp that you can plug into, or some kind of output from the unit they are using to record from, which can be available to you, taper willing.  I've never had anyone ask for a patch (mainly cause I mostly tape stuff that people hate... and people don't know about taping at all!) - but I would totally let them do it if they had what they needed in order to patch.

The ethic though is for the patcher to bring anything (mainly any kinds of cables) they might need- but then the problem arises that you don't know beforehand what you might need to patch in, so an assortment of cables is going to be necessary to catch all situations you might find.  I'd search the "Ask Tapers" forum, as patching has been discussed here a bit.

I think patching is a good idea if you want to start getting recordings before you purchase all the items in a rig.  That way, you won't be tempted to buy something crappy just to start taping (like I did) - Its an addictive hobby, and you'll prolly upgrade, so why not start out somewhat decent from the beginning?

HTH-
~Andrew

[taperkat]

I was an MD taper for 4 years, and I've got an ancient Sony Deck (MZ-R30) and 2 Sharp MD-MS722's that have seen more play than Schilling.

I recently upgraded to dat and the first show I taped, I said "Why the FUCK did I wait so long?"

the fact you can put 3 hours straight on a dat is still amazing and lovely to me. And very, much needed, especially in a stealthing situation.

MD's with optical outs are theoretically illegal to make anymore, but you can still own one, and usually they're on eBay for 50-75 bucks. They're a Sony Home Unit.

If you're going to go with MD get a sharp - I had another sony, a newer one, and it fell apart after 6 months (then was stolen out of my car, heh.. thanks karma and theft insurance!). My Sharps I've had since June of 2000, bought through minidisco.com, and now one of the shells, a screw fell out so it likes to try to open. They're both getting old, so they've been retired, and it's DAT for me.

I don't like the idea of completely digital without some kind of media. Call it old, or farfetched, or whatever, but at least a DAT won't suffer a hard drive crash and be wiped out..

just keep the magnets away

[musicguru]

Go Hi-MD.  I have yet to have any crashes at all using Sonic Stage.  Not sure what others are doing but it works great for me.  The one downside is you have to download a program found at minidisc.org to be able to do a complete digital transfer to get to a wav file.  It took me several weeks to figure it out but now I use it all the time and my recordings are great>

[Brian Skalinder]

Go Hi-MD.  I have yet to have any crashes at all using Sonic Stage.  Not sure what others are doing but it works great for me.  The one downside is you have to download a program found at minidisc.org to be able to do a complete digital transfer to get to a wav file.  It took me several weeks to figure it out but now I use it all the time and my recordings are great>

Good to hear you haven't encountered issues with SS.  Have you encountered any problems with the Renderer program that extracts WAV from the Sony proprietary file format?  Digi-noise, drop-outs, mis-placed samples, etc.?  Have you, by chance, tested for bit-transparency?  How do you feel the analog front-end and ADC perform relative to DAT or other MDs (or even JB3 if you have experience with one)?  Are the level meter(s) any good?

[som]

I was an MD taper for 4 years, and I've got an ancient Sony Deck (MZ-R30) and 2 Sharp MD-MS722's that have seen more play than Schilling.

I recently upgraded to dat and the first show I taped, I said "Why the FUCK did I wait so long?"

QFT.

I didn't wait four years, but I have several shows I recorded on MD that I wish I could go back in time to record again. It's amazing how a used D7 made my relatively cheap mics sound *way* better. There's a band I record at the Texas Jazz Fest. Two different years: same mics/battery box, same location, same stage/tent, same company running sound, same band. The only difference is Sharp MD vs. Sony D7 DAT. The DAT is far, far superior. And not in some audophile "my system came alive with these new interconnects" kind of way, it is an obvious and significant difference.

 

[taperkat]

It wasn't so much that (but god would KC Springsteen been so much easier w/dat instead of 2 mds) as much as "i only have to have one deck, no extra batteries, no extra minidiscs, holy shit this is so much easier.

[som]

Yeah, the convenience of DAT over MD is a big plus too. But for me, the sound quality difference was amazing.

[MSTaper]

Decisions, decisions! I'm leaning toward the DAT (used unfortunately) but the Jb3 really intrigues me. Unfortunately, they're not that plentiful. There were a couple on ebay, one refurbished and another an individual was selling as "never used." He's starting at $139 and the reserve has not been met. The refurbished one is 139 or so now. What's y'all's feelings on a refurbished unit?

I really wouldn't want anything too elaborate at first anyway. But I suppose this is like anything else. Start slow and build gradually, learning as you go. This board has been incredibly helpful in the short time I've been here. Plus I've found a local taper who I'm sure will provide a wealth of information.

With the Nomad, would you need a preamp for the mic? And I'm assuming you can upload from the unit to your hard drive with reasobable ease?

Thanks for the continued help. 

[hexyjones]

*]No real service options if repairs necessary

Really? If my JB3 goes wacko (which it hasn't...I freakin' love the thing), am I SOL? I can't believe that Creative's support is that bad....you have direct experience with this happening?

The product was discontinued sometime ago...no suprise they dont support it...

The nice thing about the JB3 is...it is the most "user fixable" of the three...

[hexyjones]

On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.

How does MD manage a 16-bit / 44.1 or 48 kHz optical signal?  Presumably it still applies ATRAC, but...how?  Are you sure it can handle that feed?  Or can it only accept an optical feed from another MD using ATRAC?

It will accept the full blast 16 bit optical signal...BUT

The incoming optical signal gets ATRACed...

[hexyjones]

Decisions, decisions! I'm leaning toward the DAT (used unfortunately) but the Jb3 really intrigues me. Unfortunately, they're not that plentiful. There were a couple on ebay, one refurbished and another an individual was selling as "never used." He's starting at $139 and the reserve has not been met. The refurbished one is 139 or so now. What's y'all's feelings on a refurbished unit?

I really wouldn't want anything too elaborate at first anyway. But I suppose this is like anything else. Start slow and build gradually, learning as you go. This board has been incredibly helpful in the short time I've been here. Plus I've found a local taper who I'm sure will provide a wealth of information.

With the Nomad, would you need a preamp for the mic? And I'm assuming you can upload from the unit to your hard drive with reasobable ease?

Thanks for the continued help. 

Dont get a DAT...a D7 is like over 10 years old...those things were designed in the early 90s

Do you really want to do real time transfers...? A three hour show takes over three hours to get it on disc...With the nomad you can have a 3 hour show on disc in 30 minutes...

Do you really want to buy tape...?

The JB3 refurbs are fine - and they come with a 30 day guarentee...

Just look for one with the "Buy It Now" option...139.00 bucks...get one now while you still can....

[Roamer]

On most models, the line-in is also an optical digital-in, so going digital could be an option.

How does MD manage a 16-bit / 44.1 or 48 kHz optical signal?  Presumably it still applies ATRAC, but...how?  Are you sure it can handle that feed?  Or can it only accept an optical feed from another MD using ATRAC?

On the manual of my Sharp MD, it says that it will resample 32 and 48  to 44.1khz. I don't known if it will resample 44.1 also, but then after there's the ATRAC compression anyway. I have only tried from the output of my Creative soundcard so far.
Going digital is probably more interesting with the new HiMD. I had a look at the manual of the NH1. It says (Specifications): Sampling freq. : 44.1khz, sampling rate converter : Input : 32 khz, 44.1 khz, 48 khz. It might not be bit perfect, but I don't have a HiMD, so I can't tell more.