Topic: vert or T bar?

[hayduke]

just wondering if i'd be better off picking up a shure vert bar over a T bar? am i right that the vert bar will give me more options? i'll be using C4s with the shock mounts....thanks!

[caymanreview]

im a big fan of the vert bar.

what shocks you running?

[hayduke]

newer stock models that came with the C4s i believe (haven't actually arrived yet...)
love your avatar!

[Scooter]

IMO you get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than w/ the t-bar.  i have both, and 90% of the time i use the vert bar.  but if you are running LD mics, or using really big shox, then the t-bar may be a better call.

[Brian Skalinder]

IMO you get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than w/ the t-bar.

How so?  Both support coincident and near-coincident techniques (XY, ORTF, DIN, Blumlein) with infinite variability of included angle and horizontal spacing (granted with a max horz spacing limit).  I don't believe one provides more options than the other, I think it's purely personal preference - and I happen to prefer the AKG / K&M t-bar.  'Course, I haven't used one since I got my Kwonbars.

[Scooter]

IMO you get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than w/ the t-bar.

How so?  Both support coincident and near-coincident techniques (XY, ORTF, DIN, Blumlein) with infinite variability of included angle and horizontal spacing (granted with a max horz spacing limit).  I don't believe one provides more options than the other, I think it's purely personal preference - and I happen to prefer the AKG / K&M t-bar.  'Course, I haven't used one since I got my Kwonbars.

because you can flip the pieces of the vert bar to get diff spacing between the threaded parts that the shox attach to.  and you don't need risers to go near-coincident like you do w/ the t-bar when using certain mics.  and w/ large vertical spacing, you can achieve configs that the t-bar just won't do.

[keepongoin]

IMO you get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than w/ the t-bar.

How so?  Both support coincident and near-coincident techniques (XY, ORTF, DIN, Blumlein) with infinite variability of included angle and horizontal spacing (granted with a max horz spacing limit).  I don't believe one provides more options than the other, I think it's purely personal preference - and I happen to prefer the AKG / K&M t-bar.  'Course, I haven't used one since I got my Kwonbars.

i carry a K&M stereo bar, a 3-foot wide T bar, and vert bar with bcosigan LD mod with me to most shows.

[Brian Skalinder]

because you can flip the pieces of the vert bar to get diff spacing between the threaded parts that the shox attach to.

Okay, so you can achieve greater vertical distancing between the shock mounting points.  But I think that's more a result of the different design than a functional plus or minus.

and you don't need risers to go near-coincident like you do w/ the t-bar when using certain mics.

Risers are cheap and easy.  Alternatively, just run one mount upside-down on the t-bar.

and w/ large horizontal spacing

I think you mean vertical spacing?  See comment above re vertical spacing.

you can achieve configs that the t-bar just won't do.

What configs are you able to do with your vert bar that are not possible with a t-bar?

[hayduke]

thanks for the input! think i'll start with the T at around $20 rather than the vert that's like $50 more and maybe try to DIY a vert....

[Tim]

IMO you get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than w/ the t-bar.

How so? Both support coincident and near-coincident techniques (XY, ORTF, DIN, Blumlein) with infinite variability of included angle and horizontal spacing (granted with a max horz spacing limit). I don't believe one provides more options than the other, I think it's purely personal preference - and I happen to prefer the AKG / K&M t-bar. 'Course, I haven't used one since I got my Kwonbars.

no doubt

that shure bar sucks... it's heavy and bulky and expensive. I've never understood why people use the vert bar.

[Brian]

IMO you get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than w/ the t-bar.

How so? Both support coincident and near-coincident techniques (XY, ORTF, DIN, Blumlein) with infinite variability of included angle and horizontal spacing (granted with a max horz spacing limit). I don't believe one provides more options than the other, I think it's purely personal preference - and I happen to prefer the AKG / K&M t-bar. 'Course, I haven't used one since I got my Kwonbars.

no doubt

that shure bar sucks... it's heavy and bulky and expensive. I've never understood why people use the vert bar.

because it's better than the t-bar

[Scooter]

because you can flip the pieces of the vert bar to get diff spacing between the threaded parts that the shox attach to.

Okay, so you can achieve greater vertical distancing between the shock mounting points.  But I think that's more a result of the different design than a functional plus or minus.

and you don't need risers to go near-coincident like you do w/ the t-bar when using certain mics.

Risers are cheap and easy.  Alternatively, just run one mount upside-down on the t-bar.

and w/ large horizontal spacing

I think you mean vertical spacing?  See comment above re vertical spacing.

you can achieve configs that the t-bar just won't do.

What configs are you able to do with your vert bar that are not possible with a t-bar?

look man, i'm not trying to start a war here.  i'm not even trying to convince anyone that a vert bar is better than a t-bar.  it's better for me for the reasons listed.  as i posted, it depends on what you're running.  as i said, i have both.  i'm just stating my opinion.  Me personaly, i happen to like my vert bar better.  it's all in the eye of user.  certain things that may seem like pluses to you, are minuses to me and vice versa.

[spyder9]

Brian,

Can the K&M T-bar handle the weight of the AKG 414s?

[Brian]

+T scooter, skalinder likes to make people sweat sometimes.  you know you are in the hot seat when he takes the time to break your posts down like that and keeps asking "why?"

[Brian]

Brian,

Can the K&M T-bar handle the weight of the AKG 414s?

it can handle U87's if that tells you anything.


so.....yes

[spyder9]

+T 

[Brian]

backatcha

[Tim]

Brian,

Can the K&M T-bar handle the weight of the AKG 414s?

it held my u89s just fine

[Brian Skalinder]

look man, i'm not trying to start a war here.  i'm not even trying to convince anyone that a vert bar is better than a t-bar.

I'm not trying to start a post-war either, I'm just trying to understand your comments re the vert bar.  I simply addressed your comments with my own:  the first, addressing design but not functional differences (which although plays into personal preference for usability, does not, I believe, impact configurability);  the second, indicating risers are cheap, easy, and not always necessary with the t-bar (to ensure potential users are aware of how easily this "problem" (or non-problem, as the case may be) is solved);  the third, clarifying whether you meant horz spacing as indicated, or actually meant vert spacing (I still think you meant vert spacing, yes?);  and the fourth, a perfectly valid question regarding config setup.  All perfectly appropriate comments and questions, IMO.  Apologies if I came across short or personally attacking, that was not my intent.

it's better for me for the reasons listed.  as i posted, it depends on what you're running.  as i said, i have both.  i'm just stating my opinion.  Me personaly, i happen to like my vert bar better.  it's all in the eye of user.  certain things that may seem like pluses to you, are minuses to me and vice versa.

Yup, agreed, we all have personal preferences.  But the main point of your post that triggered my question re configs is not a matter of opinion, but a factual matter, i.e. whether the vert bar offers greater variety in config setup is not an opinion, it's a factual issue.  The vert bar either offers greater variety, or it doesn't.  Aside from the option to achieve greater vertical spacing with the vert bar - which to the best of my knowledge doesn't have an impact on any of the stereo configurations we use - I'm still curious in regards to this comment...

you can achieve configs that the t-bar just won't do.

...about the question I asked but to which I have not received an answer:

What configs are you able to do with your vert bar that are not possible with a t-bar?

Either the vert bar supports more / different configs than a t-bar, or it doesn't.  As far as I know, it doesn't.  But I could be wrong, and if I am I'm genuinely interested in learning if and how it does offer greater variety.

[Tim]

can you run NOS with the vert bar?

[Tall Adam]

probably depends on the mics/shocks. I can just barely get to NOS w/ my homemade vert bar, but its 1" thick PVC...real vert bars are skinnier. If you push your mics all the way forward in the shocks its probably possible w/ most any mics.

[Brian]

can you run NOS with the vert bar?

i don't have sub-cards

but good point.  i'm not sure how wide you can get with the supermounts.  as a matter of fact i'll go measure now for the hell of it  i have both but never really use the k&m bar.  i'd use it for clamping though, which i haven't done since i've had my oktavas.  now that i have SD's again(483s) it will get busted out.  

[Brian]

with my adks. capsule 2 capsule with the standard mounts was 24cm.  i 've misplaced my supermounts.  i don't think they are too much wider than the regular mounts so i'm not sure if they make it to 30cm either.

i got to 30cm easily with my akgs' on the vert bar.  too bad they don't make a subcard cap for the 480 series.  or a bidirectional cap for that matter too.  the neumann km100 and schoeps cmc6 lines are smaller so i'm not sure if they make it to 30cm on a vert bar with the bodies.  then again i'm seeing more tapers run the actives so that might be a moot point if they get all the bars.

[nickgregory]

I would recommend the vark bar...a t bar with risers and in the same price range as the vert bar...and oh yeah, weighs a LOT less...the vert bar is ok, but I would choose something lighter, yet does the same thing, every time.

[admkrk]

"i" can get a wider variety of configureations from my vert bar. also i can change much faster if i feel i need to at the last min. it doesn't give me the option of running 3 mic setup like my t bar does though.

[Brian Skalinder]

"i" can get a wider variety of configureations from my vert bar.

I'll pose the same question to you, admkrk - what configs are you able to accomplish with the vert bar that are not possible with the t-bar?

[F.O.Bean]

ive owned 3 tbars, the vert bar, the akg bar, and the sambra tbar, once i bought the shure vert bar, i never looked back, in fact, i bought my vert bar off of skalinder

[admkrk]

"i" can get a wider variety of configureations from my vert bar.

I'll pose the same question to you, admkrk - what configs are you able to accomplish with the vert bar that are not possible with the t-bar?

without trying to remember names, using my nt5s, i can just bearly get one (true) coincident configureation. works grate for spreading them 90% (once again i can't remember the metric convertions) w/ nak 301 in the middle. i'm usualy walking in to a venue blind. never been there and don't know were i'll end up, usualy running late to boot. i can pre-set the vert to what i think will work best and throw it up fairly quick. if i deside i want to change, once i'm set up, i can go from coinsident to near in a snap. granted, i could just leave the one mount upside down on the t and still do the same, it just seems faster and easier w/ the vert.

useing longer mics, like the naks, there is probly less of a problem. i just see a lot more flexability w/ a vert bar

 

[Brian Skalinder]

without trying to remember names, using my nt5s, i can just bearly get one (true) coincident configureation.

With the NT5s - since they're fixed cards, and roughly the same size as other similar SD mics - the only true coincident technique applicable is XY, which IME is easy to set up with a t-bar.  The other coincident techniques - MS, Blumlein - require different polar patterns and don't apply to the NT5s.

i just see a lot more flexability w/ a vert bar

Glad you dig it!  It's clear that some prefer the vert bar.

But it's also becoming clear to me that the reasons people prefer the vert bar are purely personal, not because it's any more functional than a t-bar in achieving mic configs we use in the field.  This has been my point all along - to claim preference is one thing, to claim it's a more capable mount is another.  I don't believe the latter is true and would appreciate anyone who can tell me what mic config the vert bar is capable of that a t-bar is not.

[admkrk]

But it's also becoming clear to me that the reasons people prefer the vert bar are purely personal, not because it's any more functional than a t-bar in achieving mic configs we use in the field.  This has been my point all along - to claim preference is one thing, to claim it's a more capable mount is another.  I don't believe the latter is true and would appreciate anyone who can tell me what mic config the vert bar is capable of that a t-bar is not.

yer probly right there, but, just like people perfering diferent configureations, different rigs, ect.  it all boils down to what works best for you and your set-up.

   kirk

[Scooter]

look man, i'm not trying to start a war here.  i'm not even trying to convince anyone that a vert bar is better than a t-bar.

I'm not trying to start a post-war either, I'm just trying to understand your comments re the vert bar.  I simply addressed your comments with my own:  the first, addressing design but not functional differences (which although plays into personal preference for usability, does not, I believe, impact configurability);  the second, indicating risers are cheap, easy, and not always necessary with the t-bar (to ensure potential users are aware of how easily this "problem" (or non-problem, as the case may be) is solved);  the third, clarifying whether you meant horz spacing as indicated, or actually meant vert spacing (I still think you meant vert spacing, yes?);  and the fourth, a perfectly valid question regarding config setup.  All perfectly appropriate comments and questions, IMO.  Apologies if I came across short or personally attacking, that was not my intent.

it's better for me for the reasons listed.  as i posted, it depends on what you're running.  as i said, i have both.  i'm just stating my opinion.  Me personaly, i happen to like my vert bar better.  it's all in the eye of user.  certain things that may seem like pluses to you, are minuses to me and vice versa.

Yup, agreed, we all have personal preferences.  But the main point of your post that triggered my question re configs is not a matter of opinion, but a factual matter, i.e. whether the vert bar offers greater variety in config setup is not an opinion, it's a factual issue.  The vert bar either offers greater variety, or it doesn't.  Aside from the option to achieve greater vertical spacing with the vert bar - which to the best of my knowledge doesn't have an impact on any of the stereo configurations we use - I'm still curious in regards to this comment...

you can achieve configs that the t-bar just won't do.

...about the question I asked but to which I have not received an answer:

What configs are you able to do with your vert bar that are not possible with a t-bar?

Either the vert bar supports more / different configs than a t-bar, or it doesn't.  As far as I know, it doesn't.  But I could be wrong, and if I am I'm genuinely interested in learning if and how it does offer greater variety.

yes, i meant vertical spacing.  my bad.

as i said, problems to me might be non-problems to you.  personal preference prevails here.

differences is design, to me, equates to diferences is functionality.

if you want to get technical, i'm sure that with enough mods, tweaks, and add-ons both units could be made to produce the same configs.  so in deference to this, i'll revoke my earlier statement about the the vert bar achieving configs that the t-bar can't.  neither of us can 100% confirmm or deny that a certain config can or cannot be attained w/ either device.  i was meaning to give my opinion that, to me, the vert bar gives more options.  to me, in my situation, with my gear and preferences, it gives me more options.  i should have said "IMO w/ my setup, i get more of a variety of options w/ the vert bar than the t-bar".   we could go on and on about this, but it really won't serve any purpose.  he aksed for advise, i gave my opinion.

[Brian Skalinder]

Alright, I just scratched a lengthy post I prepared in response to Scooter - no point in dragging this out as he's obviously missed my point entirely.  Hopefully the shorter post will encourage Scooter or others to actually address the one and only question I've posed:

What mic configs does the vert bar support but a t-bar does not?  I believe the answer is "none".

[Tall Adam]

im not saying its impossible, but it certainly would have been very difficult to find a way to do ORTF with my old set up (c1000s on a standard "on stage stands" 3 mic mount like this:



maybe if you ran one upside down and then tried to push the mics so that they were really unbalanced in your clips or shocks...but i wouldnt trust it. other than that, i think your probably right brian. ive been using a DIY vert bar for a few months now and like it alot, but i think i may be in the market for a cheap bar (probably the KM 235 (#?)) or a used, mostly so i have some more room to spread my omnis when i want to.

[Ed.]

i never used the akg bar, but i'm curious now.  i'm currently using pfife's vert bar with his tl's and holyshit that thing is heavy.  i honestly thought that thing was sweet until i picked it up.  i'm personally a fan of my home made vert bar that i used with my audixes, it weighed next to nothing, i could run just about anything i wanted with it, and it cost me about $5 to make.  i'll probably make another one for my new mics, or use the same one if i can.

so my suggestion, just make your own if you're not running ld's.