Topic: MK4's ~vs~ MK4v's

[shaggy]

I think the biggest advantage is the physical nature of the cap and the orientation.  The side address orientation allows the caps to be turned on their sides, making placement in a hat much easier for true ORTF and more natural looking.  The orientation also allows for better off axis response. 

I have to slightly disagree here. First, turning the 4v's around backwards in a ortf bar is 70 degrees and it changes the distance between the caps.
This is not ORTF or true ORTF, whatever that means.
2nd, by running them in a hat, it would be virtually impossible to run 4v's in ORTF. I agree that they are easier to run in a hat, but not in ORTF mode, nor would it really matter to run them in any set pattern when inside a hat. Any good pattern will work if you get close enough and keep your head up.

Well Phil, I am not running the STg bar in my hat, LOL.  I have a set up that freelunch helped me with where I CAN run my 4Vs at 16.5cm apart (capsule to capsule) and between 100-110 degrees in a large Kangol.  But I have to be honest, I run the 4Vs in a STg at clubs in the dORTF (backwards, 70 degree) orientation.  I actually like it as it gives more directivity in not so nice sounding venues....like the 9:30 club or some in-store event....

http://www.archive.org/details/CVB2006-10-10.dwonk.flac

http://www.archive.org/details/GLove2006-10-22.dwonk.flac

[OOK]

I think the biggest advantage is the physical nature of the cap and the orientation.  The side address orientation allows the caps to be turned on their sides, making placement in a hat much easier for true ORTF and more natural looking.  The orientation also allows for better off axis response. 

I have to slightly disagree here. First, turning the 4v's around backwards in a ortf bar is 70 degrees and it changes the distance between the caps.
This is not ORTF or true ORTF, whatever that means.
2nd, by running them in a hat, it would be virtually impossible to run 4v's in ORTF. I agree that they are easier to run in a hat, but not in ORTF mode, nor would it really matter to run them in any set pattern when inside a hat. Any good pattern will work if you get close enough and keep your head up.

Cheers, Phil

 

I am biased obviously, but in the Schoeps ORTF bar then yes the 4V's are not true ORTF. Get a Kwon bar though and you are all set. 

Considering Josephine runs 95% of the time stealth I would recommend the 4's or 4V's. Omni's in a stealth setup doesn't seem to be like a good idea to me. You will like the HF bump from the 4V's to compensate for your hat and what it takes away from your recording or whatever you use.

The mk5's are superb caps, but for nearly double the price of 4's I am pretty sure I know what I would do in this situation. If your decision is between the mk5's and 4v's then I would not hesitate to get 4v's considering your application. You should also sell your 41's and get some 41v's. The only hyper out there worth a damn if you ask me. 

I disagree somewhat.  If 95% of the time when one is stealthing omni is the way to go pending certain things. 
1.  one must be close to the source of sound.  Preferably the first 25 rows from the PA.
2.  Omnis are much more forgiving to head movement.  When stealthing with cards one gets alot of phase shifting when one moves their head.
3. Head mounted omnis is a Binaural recording technique. This emulates the human perception of sound, and will provide the recording with important aural information about the distance and the direction of the sound-sources. When replayed on headphones, the listener will experience a spherical sound image, where all the sound-sources are reproduced with correct spherical direction.(ok I stole this from DPA, but I couldn't put it any better)

 Running head mounted omnis is almost like running a jenkins disk.  Its a form of OSS recording.

If you can afford it I would go with the MK5's.  Then you would have the best of both worlds. omnis for stealthing and cards for distance and open taping, not that you could use omnis in open taping.  Having the two patterns opens up so many options for you.  I wish MBHO made a cap like this.

Happy taping, hows Rosie doing, I miss her.....

[shaggy]

I like omnis up close too in a HRTF set up BUT I have found that people in general cannot shut up while the band is playing or feel compelled to clap loudly...offbeat.  Cards really help out with that extraneous noise.  But I have to agree, if you are in a sweet spot up front with a well-mannered crowd around you, a pair of DPA4061s will produce some stunning results. 

I have to disagree about the phasing, it is always a problem card or omni.

[rowjimmytour]

Why would someone want MK4's over MK4v's . . .  or vice versa?

Can some explain (in lay terms) the differences between the two?
Remember, I'm no techie -- I just know how to push buttons. 
In what conditions would one want to use eacjh of these mics?
Thanks ~

Josephine Ya forgot also 9v battery testing to your resume along w/ pushing buttons. How was the LL show last weekend?
Peace

[Josephine]

Why would someone want MK4's over MK4v's . . .  or vice versa?

Can some explain (in lay terms) the differences between the two?
Remember, I'm no techie -- I just know how to push buttons. 
In what conditions would one want to use eacjh of these mics?
Thanks ~

Josephine Ya forgot also 9v battery testing to your resume along w/ pushing buttons. How was the LL show last weekend?
Peace

LOL . . .  As you'll recall, Jim, it was Herb who licked the batteries.   

Los Lobos was wonderful . . . so was Richie Sambora and Jackson Browne.
The venue they played was incredible -- a newly opened 500 seat performing arts center.  Sound was WOW.
Since it was a pricey benefit show, the crowd was really (old) respectful.  No unruly patrons -- made for a good tape.
Come down and join us at the Canyon Club show in June !!

[Brian]

Wait... this isn't interchangable caps, this is just a single capsule which does both omni and card?

yep. one capsule, two patterns, selectable via switch

Nice, that's really interesting. I see I need to do more research

basically all you need to do to convert a cardioid to an omni is cover up the side vents.  the side vents are there to create the desired polar pattern.

[DSatz]

> basically all you need to do to convert a cardioid to an omni is cover up the side vents.  the side vents are there to create the desired polar pattern.

The resulting omni would have very strange frequency response. If it were that simple to make a switchable omni/cardioid capsule with good sonic characteristics, everyone would do it!

--best regards

[Brian]

> basically all you need to do to convert a cardioid to an omni is cover up the side vents.  the side vents are there to create the desired polar pattern.

The resulting omni would have very strange frequency response. If it were that simple to make a switchable omni/cardioid capsule with good sonic characteristics, everyone would do it!

--best regards

no doubt, but i did say "basically"

[H₂O]

I have owned both (4's first then got 4V's then went back to 4's).  I would have to agree with the other responders about running the 4v's for stealth in an closer to ORTF config.  You can still run the 4's in somewhat of an XY config but you will probably get less consistent results.

I switched back to mk4's because I now run CMC6xt's mainly, which as with the 4V's also have a slight HF emphisis and I thought the V's with the XT's was a little much.

Also the V's taper off faster on the highend of the frequency range around falling off at around 15Khz vs MK4 falling off at around 40Khz (w/ the XTs).   This can allow for extended extended frequency response with 24bit (or 1bit) recording.

I also run M222's which have an extended highend frequency range rated around 30Khz (with NT222DC)

I liked the HF emphisis of the V's with the M222's but I pulled some great tapes with the mk4 > M222 as well.

In regards to the higher than 20KHz frequency ranges, they are beyond most peoples audible range (and I am sure alot of playback equipment) so I guess you could argue why do you need this. 

In your situation, with the nbox, the above may not be as applicable, but the caps alone should not drive this decision, as your entire rig can push you one way or the other as in my situation.  So you may want to see if you can borrow a pair of both and run comparisons with your equipment in the same night (i.e. set 1 4's set 2 4v's) and let your ears guide you.

Both are great caps and will make solid recordings, so if your going to stealth mainly I'd go for the 4v's, otherwise I'd stick with the 4's (4v's are not worth the extra money).  I personnaly would not spend the money on the 5's either because omni is only usable in very specific situations.  With the money you save on the 4's vs the 4v's I'd save the money and buy a set of mk21's (usable in more situations than omni's) at a later date.

My 2 cents,
-RC

[bluntforcetrauma]

I am jumping in real late here but
why would 41v's be better than 41's for hypers when stealthing

thank you

[H₂O]

I am jumping in real late here but
why would 41v's be better than 41's for hypers when stealthing

thank you

Easier placement - To run in a arrangement similar to ORTF or DIN (although spacing would not be close to perfect) the v's can run flush with your head in a cap versus needing to be pointed outward with the on axis 4's (or 41's).

I have stealthed with 41's in a cap and ended up with somewhat of an XY configuration.  Beyond that in the field, I have personally had less consistent results with XY configurations vs. ORTF or DIN arrangements.

I personally believe that you will get more consistent results running v's in a close to ORTF/DIN configuration in a hat with a lower profile.  You can still run 41's in a non-XY configuration but capsule placement will be very close (i.e. on top of your head) or you will have mickey mouse ears (either that our you could have a big ol mop of hair and hide em in there). 

[SonicSound]

campbrs - Have you stealthed with the tubes?

[H₂O]

campbrs - Have you stealthed with the tubes?

No never only XT's - but could have at the event I ran the 41's at, security was as tight and messed up as the Metal Detector scene in the movie Airplane