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Author Topic: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)  (Read 8706 times)

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Offline Charlie Miller

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AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« on: January 15, 2008, 02:23:03 PM »
Steve Kimock just called me and said he wants to start using AKG 414's to mic his guitar amp. We used them for our studio album, the dvd and lots of shows. He really liked the way they sound.

What I was wondering is which ones to get. There are 3 kinds listed on the website:

AKG C 414 B-XL II http://www.akg-acoustics.com/site/products/powerslave,id,782,pid,782,nodeid,2,_language,EN,view,specs.html
AKG C 414 LTD http://www.akg-acoustics.com/site/products/powerslave,id,987,pid,987,nodeid,2,_language,EN,view,specs.html
AKG C414 B-XLS http://www.akg-acoustics.com/site/products/powerslave,id,781,pid,781,nodeid,2,_language,EN,view,specs.html

We obviously need one that can handle a high SPL. When Rudson (Ramrod's son) was working with the band, he would use 414's on Steve that he got from the GD studio. Not sure which ones they were, but they were nice.

Any input from 414 owners would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Charlie
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:27:04 PM by Charlie Miller »
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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 02:31:41 PM »
Charlie.....I used to run the xls's....they may be overkill since all you will be doing with them is using them on the amp.

edit:  when you talk to Kimock again, tell him that the weather in Memphis is nice.  He should come visit and play for us :)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:35:39 PM by spreadheadtom »

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 02:34:01 PM »
I am pretty sure that the XL are specifically designed for instrument micing:

An Improved Version Of A Studio/Stage Classic!
With new useful features, improved technical specifications, ease of use and available accessories, AKG's C 414 B-XL II launches the next generation of AKG microphone quality. This update of a classic microphone maintains its distinctive timbre especially designed for recording or live reproduction of solo vocals and solo instruments

What do I know? I have a pair of XLS and I have never run the XL II's.

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »
All three have -6, -12 and -18 db pads on the mics and can handle very high spl without difficulties.

The XLS are more flat in terms of freq. response, so they would probably be the best of the three and the most commonly used for micing loud guitar amps.

The XLII are transformerless and have a presence bump in the mid/high with female solo vocals in mind, so less suited in my opinion due to likely EQ issues in the mid-high range

I believe the LTD are the same as the XLS, with the one exception of being transformerless on the output stage...other than that, they are just more $$$ and have a different finish/factory markings  (the freq. response charts are slightly different and show more of a mid-high bump with the LTD vs. the XLS version)

 :'( so sad I just sold mine...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 02:46:44 PM by easyjim »

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2008, 02:49:03 PM »
All three have -6, -12 and -18 db pads on the mics and can handle very high spl without difficulties.

The XLS are more flat in terms of freq. response, so they would probably be the best of the three and the most commonly used for micing loud guitar amps.

The XLII are transformerless and have a presence bump in the mid/high with female solo vocals in mind, so less suited in my opinion due to likely EQ issues in the mid-high range

I believe the LTD are the same as the XLS, with the one exception of being transformerless on the output stage...other than that, they are just more $$$ and have a different finish/factory markings  (the freq. response charts are slightly different and show more of a mid-high bump with the LTD vs. the XLS version)

 :'( so sad I just sold mine...

Thanks for the professional opinion. Now I know, "and knowing is half the battle".  - G.I. Joe

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2008, 02:54:35 PM »
Thanks for the professional opinion. Now I know, "and knowing is half the battle".  - G.I. Joe

well, not really professional... ::)

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2008, 03:09:01 PM »
I believe they're all transformerless (XLII, XLS, LTD....even the older TLII).  Not the old ULS, though.
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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2008, 03:18:34 PM »
Thanks for all of your input. +t all around...
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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2008, 03:24:08 PM »
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a pair of 414s micing Trey's amp in the Live in Brooklyn Phish DVD.  Maybe it was one for the PA and one for the recording? Or maybe as two fig. 8 w/ different spacing from the amp + phase cancellation?  Anybody know?

Offline dean

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2008, 03:26:23 PM »
I believe they're all transformerless (XLII, XLS, LTD....even the older TLII).  Not the old ULS, though.

That's my understanding, as well.  I'm a new with my xls, though, so I'm as interested as anyone in this thread.  I hope Skalinder chimes in as he ran xls for quite some time and in many different applications.

Another notion I hold, and disabuse me of this if it's incorrect, is that the xls is primarily for acoustic up close instrument mic'ing.  That's why I got mine.  I know they DO work well for that application, but I don't know that they don't work well for other applications, e.g., electric guitar amp mic'ing.

Finally, the first night I used them I had a problem with the wav squaring off on the bottom of the wav form (as described here with graphic wav image).  I'm going to experiment with using rolloff & attenuation pads, and I need to rule out the reflection from the hard wood floor, as well.  The squaring off happened to a MUCH lesser extent when I recorded a PA'd show from 30' back (also documented further down that thread I linked), which leads me to think it's an attenuation/rolloff issue more than anything else (or that something else altogether is happening).  My concern is that Skalinder said he never used attenuation and rolloff and never had a problem.  He didn't get specific on the applications, though.

Anyway, anxious to hear some more replies to this thread.

And Charlie, I think Steve will really dig whichever 414 he ends up with.  It's a killer sounding mic and will complement his "sound" very nicely.
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Offline bluegrass_brad

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2008, 03:27:37 PM »
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a pair of 414s micing Trey's amp in the Live in Brooklyn Phish DVD.  Maybe it was one for the PA and one for the recording? Or maybe as two fig. 8 w/ different spacing from the amp + phase cancellation?  Anybody know?

If he is running a stereo amp and using true stereo effects then two mics would be needed, one for each speaker.
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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 03:30:38 PM »
Finally, the first night I used them I had a problem with the wav squaring off on the bottom of the wav form (as described here with graphic wav image).  I'm going to experiment with using rolloff & attenuation pads, and I need to rule out the reflection from the hard wood floor, as well.  The squaring off happened to a MUCH lesser extent when I recorded a PA'd show from 30' back (also documented further down that thread I linked), which leads me to think it's an attenuation/rolloff issue more than anything else (or that something else altogether is happening).  My concern is that Skalinder said he never used attenuation and rolloff and never had a problem.  He didn't get specific on the applications, though.

Possibly the output of the mic was overloading the inputs of your pre? (If so, using the pads would help)  I know the signal output of the 414s is pretty hot compared to a lot of other mics.  When I used them on stage, I would often only need to add a little or even no gain on the pre-amp to get a really nice signal.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 03:33:34 PM by easyjim »

Offline Tim

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2008, 03:38:51 PM »
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a pair of 414s micing Trey's amp in the Live in Brooklyn Phish DVD.  Maybe it was one for the PA and one for the recording? Or maybe as two fig. 8 w/ different spacing from the amp + phase cancellation?  Anybody know?

If he is running a stereo amp and using true stereo effects then two mics would be needed, one for each speaker.

what Brad said

for fun I dug up this input list from the 2001 TAB tour...
http://images.onstagemag.com/files/46/0205Extras/anastasio.html

Quote
Guitar left              AKG 414
Guitar right            AKG 414
Guitar leslie left      Sennheiser MD 409
Guitar leslie right     Sennheiser MD409
Guitar leslie low       EV RE38
Boomerang             Countryman DI
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Offline tfs8271

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 03:57:52 PM »
Let us know what you end up going with and can't wait to hear the results.
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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 04:48:43 PM »
I'm thinking C 414 B-XLS
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Offline kindms

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 05:06:33 PM »
I really like my 414XLS/st 's

They do output a hot signal but they are very versatile (card, sub-card, omni, fig 8, hypers) I know you won't be using many of the other patterns but they are nice to have
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Offline Charlie Miller

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2008, 05:35:07 PM »
I really like my 414XLS/st 's

I know you won't be using many of the other patterns but they are nice to have

That's what I was thinking
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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 05:37:48 PM »
I really like my 414XLS/st 's

I know you won't be using many of the other patterns but they are nice to have

That's what I was thinking

You mean getting a stereo pair so you can use them for taping too, when they're not occupied as reinforcement mics?  ;D

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 05:41:58 PM »
I really like my 414XLS/st 's

I know you won't be using many of the other patterns but they are nice to have

That's what I was thinking

You mean getting a stereo pair so you can use them for taping too, when they're not occupied as reinforcement mics?  ;D

I don't know about you guys, but walking around with a pair of schoeps and a pair of 414's really get's me off   ;D
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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2008, 05:56:11 PM »
I really like my 414XLS/st 's

I know you won't be using many of the other patterns but they are nice to have

That's what I was thinking

You mean getting a stereo pair so you can use them for taping too, when they're not occupied as reinforcement mics?  ;D

I don't know about you guys, but walking around with a pair of schoeps and a pair of 414's really get's me off   ;D

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2008, 12:04:38 AM »
I'm thinking C 414 B-XLS

You chose wisely.  I owned a set.   Great mics.  I miss mine badly.   

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2008, 10:13:16 AM »
I loved my set of C 414 B-XLS.  :'(

Are the Limited Edition version the same as one of other brands only silver or is there something else going on with it?
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Offline bluevolvo

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2008, 11:23:16 AM »
I like my XLS's too.

I also see 414's used for overheads on drums quite often (austin city limits/late night shows?) but can't tell what flavor

They definately have a place in the arsenal.
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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 02:04:03 AM »
I don't know about you guys, but walking around with a pair of schoeps and a pair of 414's really get's me off   ;D

Oh yes it does!!  I love running 4 channel with the MK4V's/414's.  Gonna try out my new Schoeps M/S rig with the 414's this comming weekend (ironically, recording the OTHER Kimock)

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2008, 11:11:19 PM »
I don't know about you guys, but walking around with a pair of schoeps and a pair of 414's really get's me off   ;D

Oh yes it does!!  I love running 4 channel with the MK4V's/414's.  Gonna try out my new Schoeps M/S rig with the 414's this comming weekend (ironically, recording the OTHER Kimock)

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Offline Jammin72

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2008, 11:37:50 PM »
Maybe I'm off here but If it's really for Steve's rig... would it be worth a call to AKG?  At least the US office, you would think they would be more than happy to let you know what they think about the situation, I know most purveyors of musical equipment enjoy working with known touring musicians.  Who knows they may let you try some different options?

Just thinking aloud.


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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2008, 02:03:29 PM »
Reading this thread and seeing Steve's endorsement coupled with having transferred a Phish DAT recorded with 414s has seroiusly reinforced my desire for a pair of these for instrument mics @ home.

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2008, 11:13:32 PM »
Hi Charlie

I wouldnt get any of the current 414 for live use.  I really like how the xls sounds but you switch the patterns after phantom is applied.  That is annoying.  I would also stay away from the more open sounding TLII which is also a great mic but is too open and airy for Steves guitar.  The B-ULS is the workhorse of the lineup and what most people use live.  If you can find one, the EB is the shining star of the 414 lineup (the old ones being the creme de la creme- and probably what came from the GD studio) and the new ones being close and more reliable.

Frost

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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2008, 11:36:00 PM »
I'd have to agree that the 414B-ULS are maybe more preferable in this case. 

They're no longer available new, but can be found used quite easily.  In general, they are the most sought after and most often preferred 414.  In my experience, they are bit warmer and more "analog" sounding.

I'd have to guess that any mic that came out of the GD studio was an older model, which would probably rule out the XLS.

Might be worth checking out the older options, although they all sound damn fine.


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Re: AKG 414's (which ones should I get???)
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2008, 09:13:42 AM »
Sorry to arrive late to this party. The sad fact is that when someone refers to an AKG "414" without specifying which of the approximately 15 (I'm serious) different models of AKG C 414 they are referring to, you simply don't know what mike they used. You don't even know what kind of microphone they used, apart from the raw basics ("large diaphragm, electrically switchable pattern, side addressed"--which could describe any of hundreds of different microphones) plus a certain distinctive visual design.

Within this line of models, AKG has used three different-sounding capsule types; only two of those capsule types are available any more. Knowing which capsule type is in a given model of 414 begins to give you a clue as to what kind of sound the microphone will give you.

The original C 414 was the successor of the C 412 (the solid-state, locally pattern-switched version of the C 12). The C 12 was sold as a general-purpose recording and broadcast microphone, and was widely used as such. But even after other condenser microphones supplanted it in that role, its particular high-frequency elevation made it a persistent favorite for close-miking vocalists in studios and on stage. The CK 12 capsule used in the C 12, C 12A, C 412, the original C 414 and some other models (including the C 24 stereo microphone and the Ela M 250 and M 251 made for Telefunken) is the one that's unavailable today. Microphones that still have one in good condition fetch very high prices on the "vintage" market.

AKG has since introduced a kind of copy derived from the design of this capsule, one is easier and cheaper for them to mass-produce. (The original required extensive hand-tuning of each individual capsule.) The derived version lacks some of the sonic characteristics of the original; I know of no engineers outside of AKG's marketing department who consider this derived capsule to be the equivalent of a real CK 12. Unfortunately, AKG clouds the picture considerably by also calling their knockoff capsule the "CK 12." It is in all the subsequent C 414 models that have a "II" in their name, as well as in their several attempts to market a C 12 "reissue" which again, no one I know of has ever considered to sound very much like the real thing.

The third type of capsule has essentially flat frequency response and is used in the "ULS" microphones of the series. It's very good for general recording, but has never been a favorite for close-miked studio vocals. When studio engineers mention a "414" for any kind of spot miking they almost certainly do NOT mean any model in the ULS line. However, for the type of semi-distant (moderate pickup distance) recording that people in this forum generally use, for a main pair of microphones doing the overall pickup of a musical performance and the room in which it's taking place, that is the type of 414 I would recommend. The other kind is useful only if you are picking up mainly direct sound and only if you want to brighten it considerably--and in the kind of recording that people here do, the first of those conditions is almost never met.

--best regards, and sorry for the hasty writing since there are pancakes being served downstairs and I'm not dressed yet.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 09:20:05 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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