Topic: Nbox/CMR Comp

[edtyre]

Last week at the Keswick, Nicky C and i taped The Levon Helm Band.
We were sitting next to each other, were both recording @ 24/44.1
both had a hat config of DINA, we both used a Sony PCM-M10.

mk-4>actives>nbox+>pcm-m10
mk-4>cmr>naiant tiny box>pcm-m10

I know this isn't very scientific, but i'm posting these samples so people
that are interested can hear.

Flac
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UJS18ITW
MP3
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=H97DARQ3

There are 2 files, same song recorded with each setup.

1 or 2

Let me know which sounds better? Why does it sound better? After some people have given their opinions
i'll post which rig recorded each.

have fun!

[dennisrtyler]

very interesting, thanks Ed. i will listen some more but my initial thoughts are that 1 has a more defined low end, punchier i would say. after 2 listens, i prefer source 1. gonna do more listening though.

[dennisrtyler]

im hearing a little more "openness" in source 2. the more i listen, the more the extra punch in source 1 becomes less impressive. does that make sense? i mean i like punch, dont get me wrong, but i'm not automatically giving the gold to source 1 just cause of the extra punch.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Thank you!

I'm finding the levels are significantly different.  Beyond mere peak issues that can be easily fixed, one of the files appears to have been compressed.  Maybe due to overs?

  RMS
avg  level              peak         gain
-18.8208dBFS -0.1354dBFS  6.8208dB   lhb1.wav
-16.3950dBFS -4.4382dBFS  4.3950dB   lhb2.wav

If everything had gone right, I should be able to bring both samples up to 0 dBFS and have the avg RMS levels be very close.  But if I bring both of these peak levels up to 0dBFS, sample 2 will be around -12 RMS AVG, vs -18 for sample 1.  That is a huge difference in loudness.

I tried matching the RMS levels at -16, but the files still didn't sound close in terms of levels.
Also, the files are out of sync by about 4 or 6 seconds. That makes it hard to compare specific passages.

I may look at the files more, but I don't think these files can be made equivalent for comparison.

[su6oxone]

Thanks for the comp Ed!  I've been curious about this myself.  And actually it's about as scientific as a comparison gets, since you've controlled all variables except for one -- the Nbox versus the CMR/little box (which is fair since it seems people are only using the little box with the CMRs currently)... and in a real-world, concert setting instead of some sterile studio/lab where the results would not translate to live concert recordings nearly as well.  At least you could make a conclusion that one sounds better for taping this specific concert at that specific venue with those specific conditions, etc. 

As for the actual comparison... I find them nearly indistinguishable and hence both sound great.  If I had to choose, I would choose file #1 but it's really pretty much a toss up for me. 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

And actually it's about as scientific as a comparison gets, since you've controlled all variables except for one -- the Nbox versus the CMR/little box (which is fair since it seems people are only using the little box with the CMRs currently)...

Farcical.

[darktrain]

They both sound pretty good and nothing "stood out" for me that made one seem better than the other, nice job on both

[JasonSobel]

It's not true that tinyboxes are only being used with CMRs, only about half thus far and I expect that ratio to drop as more Nak, AT, PIP, and phantom tinyboxes hit the streets.

Also note that tinybox is not littlebox--there are only a couple of CMR littleboxes vs. many many PIP/phantom littleboxes.

(which is fair since it seems people are only using the little box with the CMRs currently)

I think su6oxone could have worded it better.  I think what he was trying to say was that just about everyone here at ts.com who is running the CMR's is using either a littlebox or a tinybox, (as opposed to some other pre-amp or battery box with the CMR's).  and not that everyone using a tinybox or littlebox is running CMR's.

[su6oxone]

I think su6oxone could have worded it better.  I think what he was trying to say was that just about everyone here at ts.com who is running the CMR's is using either a littlebox or a tinybox, (as opposed to some other pre-amp or battery box with the CMR's).  and not that everyone using a tinybox or littlebox is running CMR's.

Thanks, that is what I meant to say. 

[JD]

Thanks for the comp.

I found them to be pretty close, but went with file 1. It just seemed a little fuller on the bottom end.

[sparkey]

I can't download the file.....boo....

[audBall]

I can't download the file.....boo....

Did you Click Link, enter 4-digit code, wait 45 seconds, and click on "Regular Download", which replaces the timer?

edit - to add that I've had issues with DL sites in the past.  Sometimes it's difficult to wade through ads to find the link.

As for the download, both sound great, and close.  I ultimately went with the first as well, but couldn't take a guess as to which gear it was.

[Jhurlbs81]

who had the better seat? 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

What were the gain settings on the recorders and tinybox?

[edtyre]

What were the gain settings on the recorders and tinybox?

tiny box was 28 db gain and 4 on the m10
nbox is 20 db gain fixed and 5+ on the m10

[sparkey]

I can't download the file.....boo....

Did you Click Link, enter 4-digit code, wait 45 seconds, and click on "Regular Download", which replaces the timer?

Still can't seem to get it to work...I have to say I prefer sendspace.com

[yug du nord]

My first impression....

Both sound great.
#1 seems fuller (more bottom end)....  maybe a little more "open" sounding.
#2 seems a little thinner than #1.

The high ends sound similar to me. 

Did you both use the same "wind screens"?
Were both sets of mics run approx. in the same config and the same height?
I re-read the first post which usually helps......

The biggest difference that I could tell initially was the "fuller" sound of #1.
Thanks.

[edtyre]

Did you both use the same "wind screens"?
Were both sets of mics run approx. in the same config and the same height?

No windscreens (low pro) , same config. I'm a few inches taller than Nicky.
So height is pretty close, only inches difference.

[stevetoney]

I can't download the file.....boo....

Did you Click Link, enter 4-digit code, wait 45 seconds, and click on "Regular Download", which replaces the timer?

Still can't seem to get it to work...I have to say I prefer sendspace.com

I have both Internet Explorer and Firefox set up as webbrowsers on my machine.  Alotta times if I have probs like this and I'm browsing with one of the two, I'll try the other webbrowser and the problem will resolve itself.  No clue if that will help you but perhaps worth a try.

[stevetoney]

Did you both use the same "wind screens"?
Were both sets of mics run approx. in the same config and the same height?

... only inches difference.

You know what SHE says about a few extra inches...

(you knew someone had to say it)

[yug du nord]

After another listen......  I was mistaken about the highs sounding the same.....  #2 seems a little more up front/harsh in the high end.  #1 seems smoother in general.  I'm in one of these camps, so I'm trying to be subjective without bummin my own trip....  but I think I prefer #1.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Did you both use the same "wind screens"?
Were both sets of mics run approx. in the same config and the same height?

... only inches difference.

Sometimes that's a really big deal, other times not.  It really depends on what's in front, etc.

I could be mistaken on this, but it kinda looks like one of these recordings is out of phase.  Anyone else looked that closely?

[tedyun]

Went with #1. Much fuller bottom end. I'm surprised how different they sound. I usually can't tell in these comps 

[edtyre]

#1=nbox
#2=cmr

My impression was that the nbox sounded better as well.

This is all very non-scientific. We weren't in the exact same spot (next to each other)
we both had a little different gain settings.

[edtyre]

I could be mistaken on this, but it kinda looks like one of these recordings is out of phase.  Anyone else looked that closely?

Which one?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I could be mistaken on this, but it kinda looks like one of these recordings is out of phase.  Anyone else looked that closely?

Which one?

Not sure which one, it kinda looks like #2.  It's one thing to notice that one of them might be inverted, but more tricky to identify which one it is.    The phase would not account for the harshness in the highs I heard with #2.

So in terms of what I heard and voted...  I found the highs on #2 somewhat harsh and grating.    When comparing sources, I tend to focus on the negatives that bother me, and that really jumped out.  The bass was different, but that didn't matter given the harshness I perceived.

In a comp, people tend to prefer the louder source.  So it is odd that so many of us actually prefered #1, when it was the more quiet source.   Btw, as I dug deeper I found some of the differences in peak levels were actually due to one recordist being closer to a clapper.

Beyond my concerns about phase and levels, the waveforms here were surprisingly very different.  Take a close look.   I was using audacity, which I really don't like.   It'd be interesting to compare them in wavelab (which I'm more comfortable in), but I think I'd see the same differences.

And again, though I did reluctantly vote, it seems there were some issues with this comp that preclude me from judging the gear.   I did expect the tinybox/cmr to do better than this.  I had no idea which source was which.  I'm really surprised by what I heard, and wonder what is up.  I know John is quite rigorous in his design engineering, but I don't recall reading many posts about listening tests.  Those weren't the mk4's that were in the toilet?

So, I don't know.. The levels were different, the phase may be out on one, the waves look a little funky.  More investigation is needed.  tinybox issue?  cmr issue?

Also, as an aside, I still feel the m10 needs more serious testing.  Someone with a great and well known preamp like the v3 should do a test where the v3 gain is varied along with the m10 gain.  We really need to know if the m10 sounds funky at certain gain settings.  Though I would not expect 4 vs. 5 to sound all that different.  Also, we need to know how hot the m10 should be run, and what sounds best (or if there is even any difference).  Those types of tests can be done at home.  Boring stuff, but important.

[NOLAfishwater]

the only true comp will be on a stand in same configuration with same recorder

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Forgot one thing... 48volts polarization = spitty highs

[yug du nord]

What is the main usage of CMR's in the industry??

[schoepsnbox]

I wired up the cmrs up for ed...And while I must admit the cmrs are an appealing setup, they seem to have limitations.
This gave me the opportunity to take a voltage reading and I only got a voltage reading of 9.3volts to polarize the capsule..so the myth of the larger capsule ends containing the goods to step up the voltage to 48-60 volts has been busted IMO..
Regardless of the preamp/recorder used with these cmrs the characteristics of the capsule suffer due to lower polarization voltage..again all IMO.  YMMV

[it-goes-to-eleven]

This gave me the opportunity to take a voltage reading and I only got a voltage reading of 9.3volts to polarize the capsule..so the myth of the larger capsule ends containing the goods to step up the voltage to 48-60 volts has been busted IMO..

Shocking.. pun not intended.   We already know it isn't 60 volts, and we've been told it is 48.  I'm curious to see the circuit in the cmr.  I'd expect a new IC, and not just a variation on a KC5.  What sort of meter did you use to measure the voltage?

[schoepsnbox]

This gave me the opportunity to take a voltage reading and I only got a voltage reading of 9.3volts to polarize the capsule..so the myth of the larger capsule ends containing the goods to step up the voltage to 48-60 volts has been busted IMO..

Shocking.. pun not intended.   We already know it isn't 60 volts, and we've been told it is 48.  I'm curious to see the circuit in the cmr.  I'd expect a new IC, and not just a variation on a KC5.  What sort of meter did you use to measure the voltage?

Used a Fluke 112 to take the voltage measurement...I have performed the same measurements with other schoeps active cables...such as VMS02iB, VMS5U, and Sonosax w/KCY cables and there is definitely a much lower voltage on the CMRs...I did take the one CMR cable apart out of shear curiosity and it is completely different than the standard KC end all together..I didn't get to document it all as the cables were assembled just hours before the show and the parts are all surface mount.
Gotta say, Schoeps does listen to suggestions made by users and if there is enough interest they will develop an answer...the same can not be said about other mic makers.

[Brian Skalinder]

Regardless of the preamp/recorder used with these cmrs the characteristics of the capsule suffer due to lower polarization voltage..again all IMO.

What characteristics, exactly?

I don't have a solid enough technical background to identify what characteristics would or could be impacted by lower polarization, beyond accepting at face value the commentary from Schoeps that 48v (instead of 60v) polarization impacts sensitivity, marginally at that...and nothing more.  So in my mind, (at least) two potential scenarios may apply when one supplies much lower than 60v capsule polarization (like 9.3v):

• Still lower sensitivity...and nothing more
• Below a certain threshold, lower capsule polarization impacts sonic characteristics other than just sensitivity.
  
  

It's this latter case about which I'm curious and wonder whether it applies in this case.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Used a Fluke 112 to take the voltage measurement...I have performed the same measurements with other schoeps active cables...such as VMS02iB, VMS5U, and Sonosax w/KCY cables and there is definitely a much lower voltage on the CMRs..

I'm not familiar with that meter, but is it possible that the driver circuit provides too little current to measure with that meter?

[darktrain]

Listening to the samples it hard to say that one suffers over the other, so the statement that the cmr's suffer beyond the drop in sensitivity is just silly, i actually like the fact that they are have a little lower sensitivity, it comes in very handy when recording extremely loud metal/rock bands in small venues and seems to be very nice with quiet acts as well with gain added from the tinybox, feels like Nicky is trying to piss on the CMR parade, each(nbox and cmr's) has its place and followers, like me, i have had a nbox and liked it but it really bothered me the amount of power it consumes and found that i didn't like the fixed gain and size but I would never tell someone not to give it a go or smear it intensionally, its a great unit but i personally think the cmr/tinybox is awesome as well and i now have many quality shows under many conditions that only confirm this.

[schoepsnbox]

Sure, I'm trying to piss on the CMR parade...Right...Hey listen..to each his own...it's obvious by this comparison that a majority of folks preferred the Nbox recording...I can see how you can perceive that as me fluffing the Nbox and trying to "piss" on your parade but how can you argue that a reduced voltage polarizing the backplate of a condenser mic is not going to have any negative affect on the sensitivity of the capsule...beside the fact that these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter...Hey, if your satisfied with your recordings then I'm happy for you...If the CMRs are your end all, why should I care...Everything I put out there was all IMO...What do you care what I think?...You like your rig and I like mine...Carry on with your CMR parade...I'll keep my power hungry preamp for my outings.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Listening to the samples it hard to say that one suffers over the other, so the statement that the cmr's suffer beyond the drop in sensitivity is just silly

It's not just that.  The cmr source's waveform was.. odd.  And not just the concerns about phase (that's easily fixed).

[schoepsnbox]

mshilarious, first let me say that I think your products are fantastic and none of this discussion has any bearing on your products AT ALL..the tinybox that ed gave me along with his CMRs to rig up is a sweet looking unit and my concern is with the CMR cables and not your preamp...Now my slant on the CMR cables is that they are not powering the capsule with the proper voltages, which has been my concern all along. There is no dc-dc converter in the CMRs so it only passes the power from the pre along to the capsule..this may be fine for the duties they were designed for and for all intensive purposes they do a fine job...had Ed not put out the cash to give them a whirl and happen to have an extra ticket for me so we could do a comp we would likely not be having this discussion...I'm not looking to "piss" anyone off here...Just would like to state what I see to be the case...If it hurts someones feeling or upsets the apple cart then so be it..Do the CMR's work....they sure do....Do they sound good, absolutely...The whole purpose behind this exercise was to put the "questions" to rest..The Schoeps capsules have a separate ring for polarization which differs them from all the other capsule like akg, gefell and others...I have always measured the voltage the same way with the capsule detached and was always able to achieve the 48-60 volt that one would expect to see..now if the CMRs work in a different fashion then I may be mistaken...but I highly doubt it..So far no one can prove otherwise..Thanks for the time and your work on your pres and such...you are a great asset to the community..Hope I did not offend you or your work here.

[Brian Skalinder]

The cmr source's waveform was.. odd.  And not just the concerns about phase (that's easily fixed).

For those of us unable to do so on our own, would you mind posting some screenshots of the oddities?

[schoepsnbox]

Oh, trust me I'm not offended, it's a technical problem which is of interest.  But I find it difficult to believe that Schoeps isn't running a DC converter.  They'd have to in order to get even 9.3V out of tinybox; it is only supplying 7.5V in CMR configuration.

Stupid question here...have you actually wired the CMR cables or tested them personally?

[acidjack]

Listening to the samples it hard to say that one suffers over the other, so the statement that the cmr's suffer beyond the drop in sensitivity is just silly, i actually like the fact that they are have a little lower sensitivity, it comes in very handy when recording extremely loud metal/rock bands in small venues and seems to be very nice with quiet acts as well with gain added from the tinybox, feels like Nicky is trying to piss on the CMR parade, each(nbox and cmr's) has its place and followers, like me, i have had a nbox and liked it but it really bothered me the amount of power it consumes and found that i didn't like the fixed gain and size but I would never tell someone not to give it a go or smear it intensionally, its a great unit but i personally think the cmr/tinybox is awesome as well and i now have many quality shows under many conditions that only confirm this.

Being someone who has no skin in this game, Robb, I don't think anyone is trying to "smear" the CMRs.  I think it is of interest to folks here how they perform since they seem to be "magic" in some respects in that they seem to be able to provide Schoeps-like performance without the high power needs that you mentioned (and Nicky does not deny) of the NBox.  This kind of reminds me, on the much, much lower end, of the debate between using a simple 9v battery box with the small mics folks use vs. a pre.  I personally find that for loud music, it doesn't really matter and using a more bulky pre is a waste.  But some beg to differ.  I think the same seems to be true with CMRs.  On a purely technical basis, they are a bit less sensitive.  For most of the shows you tape (and most that I probably tape) that difference appears to be small (although, according to those who listened to this comp, it seems perceptible).  Especially for folks who stealth a lot, so many other factors are involved that I would have a hard time getting worked up over the small differences.

But what do I know...I stealth with 4021s at the rare times I do it these days and use the bodies with my Schoeps... On the other hand, I don't have $1k+ in a pre or an SD box.  Again, what matters to some, not so much to others....

I'm just glad everyone here has continued to come up with elegant and great-sounding alternatives to using the bodies with the mics....

[NOLAfishwater]

the only true comp will be on a stand in same configuration with same recorder

I don't understand how people are getting so worked up over this thread. there are too many factors that could affect the sonic quality of the recording.

Head height
Mic spacing
Fabric over mics
People sitting in front that were taller
etc.....

[page]

the only true comp will be on a stand in same configuration with same recorder

I don't understand how people are getting so worked up over this thread. there are too many factors that could affect the sonic quality of the recording.

Head height
Mic spacing
Fabric over mics
People sitting in front that were taller
etc.....

Bingo. This is simply an exercise in demonstrating what factors can change a recording, not in comparing the two recordings. For that to happen, some serious planning would have to take place (acidjack's neumann/schoeps post comes closest in a reasonable manner that I've seen lately). This isn't an useless discussion, far from it, but some context would be handy to keep in mind.

[darktrain]

It was late and i was testy, felt like he was making it a competition but in my mind its an alternative option. My whole point was that everyone seems to agree that they are very close sound wise which is really all you need to know. What difference there is could be from the pres and there "flavor" as well.  No hard feelings.

[dennisrtyler]

yeah that's what i think a lot of folks are overlooking here is that this is a comp between the nbox and the tinybox more than anything else, not nbox vs. cmr.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I don't understand how people are getting so worked up over this thread. there are too many factors that could affect the sonic quality of the recording.

Head height
Mic spacing
Fabric over mics
People sitting in front that were taller
etc.....

The original post mentioned they were both DINA.   And while those other concerns are important, Ed and Nick are both very, very experienced at this.   If there were other relevant factors that compromised the comp, like people standing in front of them, different fabric, I think they would have mentioned it.   Ed just bought CMRs, and I'm sure he is entirely motivated to produce the best possible result. And I just don't see the list of items you mentioned causing the waveform oddness (which I posted about before the sources were revealed), and the issues that MSH measured.  Something is awry...

Hopefully, we'll get some more comps soon.  I imagine Ed in particular is very motivated to figure out what is up.

[darktrain]

I don't understand how people are getting so worked up over this thread. there are too many factors that could affect the sonic quality of the recording.

Head height
Mic spacing
Fabric over mics
People sitting in front that were taller
etc.....

The original post mentioned they were both DINA.   And while those other concerns are important, Ed and Nick are both very, very experienced at this.   If there were other relevant factors that compromised the comp, like people standing in front of them, different fabric, I think they would have mentioned it.   Ed just bought CMRs, and I'm sure he is entirely motivated to produce the best possible result. And I just don't see the list of items you mentioned causing the waveform oddness (which I posted about before the sources were revealed), and the issues that MSH measured.  Something is awry...

Hopefully, we'll get some more comps soon.  I imagine Ed in particular is very motivated to figure out what is up.

I have not seen anything strange in my waveforms when i use my cmr's and tinybox or bb so could be isolated and mean nothing

[yug du nord]

Is it safe to say that schoepsnbox and Darktrain wire the CMR's exactly the same?

Constructive criticism is a good thing.  It makes us all better if it's not taken personally.

[schoepsnbox]

I was supplied the pin configuration from ed who got it from msh..so I think it should be a standard configuration for tinybox..I would think so anyhow..jon?

[yug du nord]

I was supplied the pin configuration from ed who got it from msh..so I think it should be a standard configuration for tinybox..I would think so anyhow..jon?

So, it seems different wiring schemes for the CMR's can be ruled out.
That's a baby step.

[schoepsnbox]

So...is anyone interested in an Nbox rig

[stevetoney]

The only thing clear to me from reading this thread is that many people commenting have some form of vested interest in where this discussion goes.   

With the exception of some raw data being offered here and there, I'm starting to wonder whether the blind test at the beginning of this thread is the only really credible part of this thread.   

Not meaning to be a dick and not intending to call anyone out...just sayin'.

[schoepsnbox]

The only thing clear to me from reading this thread is that many people commenting have some form of vested interest in where this discussion goes.   

With the exception of some raw data being offered here and there, I'm starting to wonder whether the blind test at the beginning of this thread is the only really credible part of this thread.   

Not meaning to be a dick and not intending to call anyone out...just sayin'.

What exactly are you sayin?

[edtyre]

I'm at Gathering Of The Vibes
I'll be home monday and will try to figure if anything went wrong with
the first recording i did with the CMR's. Just checked this thread and can't believe
all the comments. My intentions were honest. The CMR's sound pretty good up here
using Jon's PFA > R-44. How about i run one channel CMC6 and one channel CMR into the same
recorder?

Here's the pin config we used on my 5 pin connectors

pin 1 ground
pin 2 right signal
pin 3 left signal
pin 4 power
pin 5 open

[darktrain]

sounded good on both to me Ed, i didn't think there was anything wrong, did you? I have seen strange waveforms before(not with my current setup) but it resulted in nothing you could audibly hear.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The only thing clear to me from reading this thread is that many people commenting have some form of vested interest in where this discussion goes.   

With the exception of some raw data being offered here and there, I'm starting to wonder whether the blind test at the beginning of this thread is the only really credible part of this thread.   

Have you bothered to compare the waveforms?

[Brian Skalinder]

For those of us unable to do so on our own, would you mind posting some screenshots of the oddities?

It's not really necessary

I took "odd" to mean something unusual and/or unexpected, hence the request.  But from the discussion it seems the waveforms are simply different from one another, not necessarily "odd' in the sense I took it.  Thanks to all for the discussion to date...I'm curious to see where this leads.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I took "odd" to mean something unusual and/or unexpected, hence the request.  But from the discussion it seems the waveforms are simply different from one another, not necessarily "odd' in the sense I took it.  Thanks to all for the discussion to date...I'm curious to see where this leads.

I'll see if I can dig something up this weekend...  It is easiest for me to do screenshots in linux, but my preferred audio tools are in windows.

MSH's comments may have explained it as being due to different frequency response.   The cmr waveforms tend to look "less detailed" than the other.  So in comparison they do look "odd".  Ideally, if we're digging that deep we should use the 24 bit source, to eliminate any dither concerns.

We need a good cmr vs. cmc6 comp, ideally into a 4 chan recorder.  Then people can direct any pissed-off-ness at Schoeps.

[schoepsnbox]

Bottom line, dither doesn't cause +/-3dB peaks in response below 10kHz.

None of this is a concern unless you are recording mosquito farts     Just sayin'

Should have some more good comps once Ed gets back home...CMC6 vs CMR's...That will be the true test!

[darktrain]

Bottom line, dither doesn't cause +/-3dB peaks in response below 10kHz.

None of this is a concern unless you are recording mosquito farts     Just sayin'

Should have some more good comps once Ed gets back home...CMC6 vs CMR's...That will be the true test!

So its personal for you nick, thats at least 2 shots you have taken at me personally when i have never done that to you, you sure are doing your best to paint the cmr in a bad way, not sure why, there is plenty enough room for both, and i will say it again, both samples sounded good but more people prefer the one, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for the other. Here is a quote of yours  "these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter", thats just a nasty statement, tapers are very inventive people much like yourself who also took a product and modified it for a use that many have loved, i don't see the difference there. You are trying to make it like there can only be one, thats what i was defending, and i have no personal gain except for the fact that I really like the setup. There is room for both, can't we just hug it out and call it a day.

[schoepsnbox]

Bottom line, dither doesn't cause +/-3dB peaks in response below 10kHz.

None of this is a concern unless you are recording mosquito farts     Just sayin'

Should have some more good comps once Ed gets back home...CMC6 vs CMR's...That will be the true test!

So its personal for you nick, thats at least 3 shots you have taken at me personally when i have never done that to you, you sure are doing your best to paint the cmr in a bad way, not sure why, there is plenty enough room for both, and i will say it again, both samples sounded good but more people prefer the one, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for the other. Here is a quote of yours  "these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter", thats just a angry statement, tapers are very inventive people much like yourself who also took a product and modified it for a use that many have loved, i don't see the difference there. You are trying to make it like there can only be one, thats what i was defending, and i have no personal gain except for the fact that I really like the setup. There is room for both, can't we just hug it out and call it a day.

On the contrary, you cast the first stone...I won't waste my time going through threads of you bashing and talking shit about the Nbox..you better get some thicker skin if you think you have come up with the best way to run the schoeps guy..Who died and made you the resident CMR pusher anyhow...I have over 50 Nbox rigs out there makin hot recordings and that is what makes me happy...what do you get out of putting a 5 pin connector on some schoeps CMR's?  You want me to stop takin shots..Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!
"these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter" how does this imply anger?  I didn't say CMR's were lame..I said wireless transmitters are lame.

[willndmb]

i voted #2 on a brief listen
they both sounded pretty good though

i can understand the thought of higher voltage would be better for the caps but i wouldn't say (based on my fast listen) that the lower voltage really had much impact at all

[darktrain]

Bottom line, dither doesn't cause +/-3dB peaks in response below 10kHz.

None of this is a concern unless you are recording mosquito farts     Just sayin'

Should have some more good comps once Ed gets back home...CMC6 vs CMR's...That will be the true test!

So its personal for you nick, thats at least 3 shots you have taken at me personally when i have never done that to you, you sure are doing your best to paint the cmr in a bad way, not sure why, there is plenty enough room for both, and i will say it again, both samples sounded good but more people prefer the one, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for the other. Here is a quote of yours  "these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter", thats just a angry statement, tapers are very inventive people much like yourself who also took a product and modified it for a use that many have loved, i don't see the difference there. You are trying to make it like there can only be one, thats what i was defending, and i have no personal gain except for the fact that I really like the setup. There is room for both, can't we just hug it out and call it a day.

On the contrary, you cast the first stone...I won't waste my time going through threads of you bashing and talking shit about the Nbox..you better get some thicker skin if you think you have come up with the best way to run the schoeps guy..Who died and made you the resident CMR pusher anyhow...I have over 50 Nbox rigs out there makin hot recordings and that is what makes me happy...what do you get out of putting a 5 pin connector on some schoeps CMR's?  You want me to stop takin shots..Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!
"these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter" how does this imply anger?  I didn't say CMR's were lame..I said wireless transmitters are lame.

Its an alternate option and newer technology, give it a chance and i never bashed the nbox, only why i personally decided not to use it, in fact i told you once that my best recording was with it. This thread was started comparing the 2 wasn't it? Anyway Nick, obviously this has struck a cord in you so I won't respond anymore, not trying to make enemies.

[schoepsnbox]

Bottom line, dither doesn't cause +/-3dB peaks in response below 10kHz.

None of this is a concern unless you are recording mosquito farts     Just sayin'

Should have some more good comps once Ed gets back home...CMC6 vs CMR's...That will be the true test!

So its personal for you nick, thats at least 3 shots you have taken at me personally when i have never done that to you, you sure are doing your best to paint the cmr in a bad way, not sure why, there is plenty enough room for both, and i will say it again, both samples sounded good but more people prefer the one, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for the other. Here is a quote of yours  "these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter", thats just a angry statement, tapers are very inventive people much like yourself who also took a product and modified it for a use that many have loved, i don't see the difference there. You are trying to make it like there can only be one, thats what i was defending, and i have no personal gain except for the fact that I really like the setup. There is room for both, can't we just hug it out and call it a day.

On the contrary, you cast the first stone...I won't waste my time going through threads of you bashing and talking shit about the Nbox..you better get some thicker skin if you think you have come up with the best way to run the schoeps guy..Who died and made you the resident CMR pusher anyhow...I have over 50 Nbox rigs out there makin hot recordings and that is what makes me happy...what do you get out of putting a 5 pin connector on some schoeps CMR's?  You want me to stop takin shots..Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!
"these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter" how does this imply anger?  I didn't say CMR's were lame..I said wireless transmitters are lame.

Its an alternate option and newer technology, give it a chance and i never bashed the nbox, only why i personally decided not to use it, in fact i told you once that my best recording was with it. This thread was started comparing the 2 wasn't it? Anyway Nick, obviously this has struck a cord in you so I won't respond anymore, not trying to make enemies.

Newer isn't always better..I believe you did say some derogatory statements about the Nbox rig to boast your so called "CMR parade"  so it's not the fact that you have come up with a newer alternate option..I'm ok with that...but don't put down a rig that has been tried and true since 1992..Also it seems to me that you sir are the one that has been getting peeved with the results of this thread as I imagine you will have some annoyed folks you pushed the CMR's on to...No hard feeling  

[StuStu]

Perhaps someone can compare the two in a more controlled environment. Mudslinging will only make this 25+ pages with little to actually offer.


I'm a happy customer of both Nick and Robb and absolutely do not choose sides here.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Here is a quote of yours  "these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter", thats just a nasty statement

Wireless transmitters are Schoeps' intended market.

The wireless transmitters are inherently low bandwidth devices.    Dsatz made a posting a while go where he mentioned that Schoeps had to revise the CMR specs because they did not meet the original targets... and then someone forgot to update the website.

I'd love to find the cmr's are as good as CMC6's... But if they aren't, they aren't.  And until it is proven - they aren't.  Hearing is believing.  They may yet be completely redeemed.  As a stand-alone result, this recording is Fair.  Compared to the nbox+ source, I think it is unacceptable.   There is no way I'd give up my cmc6+kc5's, or my RMOD, for that result.  Many of us want the best possible result.  Case in point, I own six different pre-amps, and each is suitable for different situations (though I never take the ua5 out)... and I'd like to add a littlebox, and maybe a tinybox, to the mix, but the thought of two more is a bit much.

Schoeps' own text:
--
Microphone amplifier for pocket transmitters CMR

Specially designed for using SCHOEPS ”Colette” series microphone capsules with pocket transmitters

[yug du nord]

schoepsnbox, Darktrain, and Naiant are all excellent at what they do.  No need to compare abilities or products.  The more kick ass gear that is available to the taping community the better IMO. 

I don't know much about the CMR's.....  are they designed for music applications, voice applications, or both?


edit to add:  I know that this is a "comp" thread, so comparing in necessary.  But IMO, a comp is to determine what each individual listener prefers between the gear used for the comp.  Or to try and diagnose a potential problem.  But a comp should NOT be a "bashing" of a person's hard work and ingenuity.  So.....  I like the idea of "huggin it out"!!! 

Sorry if this post might sound like nonsense......  it's been a long day.

[edtyre]

Just checkin in from the road and this is what i see 

Chill out Nicky and Robb. There is a reason Robb has the highest feedback on TS.com
I am a customer of his too. Nicky has made me some really great gear & cables and helped with
all my user error problems too, besides being a good friend.

A lot of us want to find out the true story on what the CMR's can do. My main reason for trying
them out was to use as a secondary pair in a 4 channel setup. Do you think i'm giving up my
kc5>cmc6>v-3>ad2k+ for these? Not a chance! They are small, i can change caps and don't
need any pre or power to run with Jon's PFA adapter into my 4 channel recorder. Seems like a
terrific idea. CCM's with changeable caps (sort of, with a quality hit)

In the next couple of weeks we are going to find out.

[tim in jersey]

Just checkin in from the road and this is what i see 

Chill out Nicky and Robb. There is a reason Robb has the highest feedback on TS.com
I am a customer of his too. Nicky has made me some really great gear & cables and helped with
all my user error problems too, besides being a good friend.

A lot of us want to find out the true story on what the CMR's can do. My main reason for trying
them out was to use as a secondary pair in a 4 channel setup. Do you think i'm giving up my
kc5>cmc6>v-3>ad2k+ for these? Not a chance! They are small, i can change caps and don't
need any pre or power to run with Jon's PFA adapter into my 4 channel recorder. Seems like a
terrific idea. CCM's with changeable caps (sort of, with a quality hit)

In the next couple of weeks we are going to find out.

Man, I am so on the fence here.

My inner-slut wants both. My bank account says neither. </gear lust>

for now...

Oh, Man, I am so on the fence

[darktrain]

Just checkin in from the road and this is what i see 

Chill out Nicky and Robb. There is a reason Robb has the highest feedback on TS.com
I am a customer of his too. Nicky has made me some really great gear & cables and helped with
all my user error problems too, besides being a good friend.

A lot of us want to find out the true story on what the CMR's can do. My main reason for trying
them out was to use as a secondary pair in a 4 channel setup. Do you think i'm giving up my
kc5>cmc6>v-3>ad2k+ for these? Not a chance! They are small, i can change caps and don't
need any pre or power to run with Jon's PFA adapter into my 4 channel recorder. Seems like a
terrific idea. CCM's with changeable caps (sort of, with a quality hit)

In the next couple of weeks we are going to find out.

Sorry Ed, for my part in dragging this thread down, i think both me and Nick are passionate and maybe thats not always a positive.

[schoepsnbox]

Just checkin in from the road and this is what i see 

Chill out Nicky and Robb. There is a reason Robb has the highest feedback on TS.com
I am a customer of his too. Nicky has made me some really great gear & cables and helped with
all my user error problems too, besides being a good friend.

A lot of us want to find out the true story on what the CMR's can do. My main reason for trying
them out was to use as a secondary pair in a 4 channel setup. Do you think i'm giving up my
kc5>cmc6>v-3>ad2k+ for these? Not a chance! They are small, i can change caps and don't
need any pre or power to run with Jon's PFA adapter into my 4 channel recorder. Seems like a
terrific idea. CCM's with changeable caps (sort of, with a quality hit)

In the next couple of weeks we are going to find out.

Sorry Ed, for my part in dragging this thread down, i think both me and Nick are passionate and maybe thats not always a positive.

Agreed, well said Robb..it really is the passion that drives us all around here...Truce?  I'm in.

[darktrain]

Just checkin in from the road and this is what i see 

Chill out Nicky and Robb. There is a reason Robb has the highest feedback on TS.com
I am a customer of his too. Nicky has made me some really great gear & cables and helped with
all my user error problems too, besides being a good friend.

A lot of us want to find out the true story on what the CMR's can do. My main reason for trying
them out was to use as a secondary pair in a 4 channel setup. Do you think i'm giving up my
kc5>cmc6>v-3>ad2k+ for these? Not a chance! They are small, i can change caps and don't
need any pre or power to run with Jon's PFA adapter into my 4 channel recorder. Seems like a
terrific idea. CCM's with changeable caps (sort of, with a quality hit)

In the next couple of weeks we are going to find out.

Sorry Ed, for my part in dragging this thread down, i think both me and Nick are passionate and maybe thats not always a positive.

Agreed, well said Robb..it really is the passion that drives us all around here...Truce?  I'm in.

I would but I already said i wouldn't respond

[Gutbucket]

Now that were all making nice..

Regardless of the acuracy of the comp and the possible off-spec cap & powering variables, playback gear has so much to do with listener preference.. along with what was for lunch.  Listening to the MP3s, I slightly prefered 2 at work though AT noise-canceling earbuds from a built-in Dell soundcard at the end of a long, exhausting day.  After a good night's sleep at home the next day, listening with HD650s through a better chain, 1 is distinctly preferable, hands down.  Curious what they'll sound like back at work after I get back from vacation.  [shrug]

I'll be following the tech side of whats going on with interest.  The single cap > CMC6/CMR in front of a speaker test should be enlightening. 

So...is anyone interested in an Nbox rig

Yeah, for my Gefell caps!

..or CMRize 'em!

[Brian Skalinder]

Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!

feels like Nicky is trying to piss on the CMR parade

I don't have a particular stake one way or the other, but it's statements like the ones above that get people riled up.

In the former, it doesn't make much sense to say one option is inferior to the other...unless something is flat-out wrong with one of the options, which doesn't seem to be the case.  There are a variety of reasons one may prefer NBox over CMR, or vice versa, just as one may prefer Schoeps to DPA, or Grace to Apogee, or...whatever.  There's a tremendous amount of relativity and compromise involved in the decisions each of us makes when determining which gear option sounds / works best for our needs.  So to categorically say one is obviously inferior...period!...is simply silly, IMO, and it's no wonder people who are fans of the CMR option take issue with statements like these.

In the latter, I don't think it's fair to attribute motivation to another's statements without far greater supporting evidence of said motivation.  Doing so simply serves to inflame the discussion and turn it down an emotional, adversarial path. Which, as we've seen, doesn't really get us anywhere.

Cheers to those involved in the comp and the on-topic discussion genuinely aimed at identifying and understanding the differences between these two valuable gear options.

[dactylus]

So...is anyone interested in an Nbox rig

Yeah, for my Gefell caps!

^      
      

[stevetoney]

Preferences don't really concern me (for the record, I preferred #1 when EQ'ed to be comparable to #2 over #2, otherwise, the highs while audio candy wear off after a while . . . go figure . . . but I know a lot of people are opposed to EQ.  Sorry, I'm a studio guy!).  The issue is to what degree do various solutions realize the specification listed by Schoeps for a given capsule?  If we take the CMC as the standard, then CMR/tinybox (or another amp) and nbox can be technically compared.  Schoeps has already stated a 4dB loss in sensitivity for the CMR.  Is there any other change?

Actually, I think your statement perhaps sheds some light on what some of the more passionate debate has been about...I don't really think that some people feel that your statement is 'the issue' at all.   I think they're evaluating holistically based on what their ears are telling them they like and aren't all that concerned about what the data shows, where clearly that's what others are basing their discussion off of.  This thread has morphed into more of a discussion based on analytical data.  However, Ed's thread started as simply a 'which sounds better' poll and there were votes for all three choices...which kinda says to me means that both options are totally credible.

I don't make this statement to stoke any smoldering cinders...only to point out that there might be some apples and oranges elements to the several pages of argument/debate in this thread.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Actually, I think your statement perhaps sheds some light on what some of the more passionate debate has been about...I don't really think that some people feel that your statement is 'the issue' at all.   I think they're evaluating holistically based on what their ears are telling them they like and aren't all that concerned about what the data shows, where clearly that's what others are basing their discussion off of.  After all, Ed's thread started as simply a 'which sounds better' poll and there were votes for all three choices.

Specs mean nothing when stuff sounds bad.  The microtrack had amazing specs - better than the 722.

And on specs, we already know the original published cmr specs were exaggerated when schoeps was unable to hit the original performance targets.  Though if measured frequency response is off by 3dB, it may be more like arguing apples and rotten apples.

More comps will tell..

[Big Perm]

here is an example of what the CMR>PFA can do; NOT A COMPARISON, but i would not call it rotten apples 


SOURCE: schoeps mk41 (DINa)> CMR> Naiant PFA> Oade m248> SD 722

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=537357

a

[edtyre]

Adam

How about upload a small sample. Don't need 1.8 gigs to check out what it sounds like.

I'll be back from GOTV monday night. I did a comp this morning for the first group
Harlem Gospel Choir. Ran a pair of mk-41's, both pointed at the same stack an inch apart
into an Edirol R-44, one channel CMR>PFA, one channel KC5>CMC6. I took pics of the setup
i'll post too, so you can see what the config looks like. I haven't listened to them yet.
Should be interesting.

[willndmb]

Adam

How about upload a small sample. Don't need 1.8 gigs to check out what it sounds like.

I'll be back from GOTV monday night. I did a comp this morning for the first group
Harlem Gospel Choir. Ran a pair of mk-41's, both pointed at the same stack an inch apart
into an Edirol R-44, one channel CMR>PFA, one channel KC5>CMC6. I took pics of the setup
i'll post too, so you can see what the config looks like. I haven't listened to them yet.
Should be interesting.

i like this

[Big Perm]

Sorry

<a href='http://www.sendspace.com/file/u83vd6'>http://www.sendspace.com/file/u83vd6</a>

adam

[NOLAfishwater]

Perhaps someone can compare the two in a more controlled environment. Mudslinging will only make this 25+ pages with little to actually offer.


I'm a happy customer of both Nick and Robb and absolutely do not choose sides here.

all we need is someone with a 680: cmc6, nbox, cmr    would love to see that happen.

[Big Perm]

I have a DR-680 & CMR's, I am doing Deer Creek and Alpine Valley (Phish) with John W. who has an Nbox (we both have mk41's).  If someone will let me borrow their CMC6's & KC5's  I can do this comp.  I use a KCY cable with the vms5u, so I have no bodies at the moment..sorry (we do have 8 channels to play with if we wanted to throw the KCY comp in there as well...the only problem in that the 7 & 8th channel are the digital in, so the A/D processing would be coming from a SD 722 instead of being done by the dr-680... dont know how good of a comp that would be)

anyone want to help make this happen

a

[mountaintaper]

On the contrary, you cast the first stone...I won't waste my time going through threads of you bashing and talking shit about the Nbox..you better get some thicker skin if you think you have come up with the best way to run the schoeps guy..Who died and made you the resident CMR pusher anyhow...I have over 50 Nbox rigs out there makin hot recordings and that is what makes me happy...what do you get out of putting a 5 pin connector on some schoeps CMR's?  You want me to stop takin shots..Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!
"these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter" how does this imply anger?  I didn't say CMR's were lame..I said wireless transmitters are lame.

you both need to simmer down...both the Nbox and the CMR>tinybox would get blown away in a comp with the VST62ui>Aerco.....just sayin'


Just like everyone has a favorite brand of mics they prefer, some prefer different setups with the SAME mic over another setup. To each his own

[OOK]

On the contrary, you cast the first stone...I won't waste my time going through threads of you bashing and talking shit about the Nbox..you better get some thicker skin if you think you have come up with the best way to run the schoeps guy..Who died and made you the resident CMR pusher anyhow...I have over 50 Nbox rigs out there makin hot recordings and that is what makes me happy...what do you get out of putting a 5 pin connector on some schoeps CMR's?  You want me to stop takin shots..Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!
"these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter" how does this imply anger?  I didn't say CMR's were lame..I said wireless transmitters are lame.

you both need to simmer down...both the Nbox and the CMR>tinybox would get blown away in a comp with the VST62ui>Aerco.....just sayin'


Just like everyone has a favorite brand of mics they prefer, some prefer different setups with the SAME mic over another setup. To each his own

Well said.......

[schoepsnbox]

On the contrary, you cast the first stone...I won't waste my time going through threads of you bashing and talking shit about the Nbox..you better get some thicker skin if you think you have come up with the best way to run the schoeps guy..Who died and made you the resident CMR pusher anyhow...I have over 50 Nbox rigs out there makin hot recordings and that is what makes me happy...what do you get out of putting a 5 pin connector on some schoeps CMR's?  You want me to stop takin shots..Stop comparing the CMR's to the Nbox as it is obvious that the CMR's are an inferior way to run schoeps caps...period!
"these CMR's were designed for some lame wireless transmitter" how does this imply anger?  I didn't say CMR's were lame..I said wireless transmitters are lame.

you both need to simmer down...both the Nbox and the CMR>tinybox would get blown away in a comp with the VST62ui>Aerco.....just sayin'


Just like everyone has a favorite brand of mics they prefer, some prefer different setups with the SAME mic over another setup. To each his own

So are you offering you VSTui>Aerco to use for a comp??  If not I think you are a bit late to the discussion..And really have nothing to contribute otherwise

[stevetoney]

While I agree with the sentiment that people are aware enough to decide on their own what they like, both of the 'combatants' have already called a truce and there's been a beer summit, so simmering is no longer necessary.   

[mountaintaper]

So are you offering you VSTui>Aerco to use for a comp??  If not I think you are a bit late to the discussion..And really have nothing to contribute otherwise

Oh Nicky, you know it would make my day one night for you to actually WANT to use my rig..any time, any place.

[schoepsnbox]

So are you offering you VSTui>Aerco to use for a comp??  If not I think you are a bit late to the discussion..And really have nothing to contribute otherwise

Oh Nicky, you know it would make my day one night for you to actually WANT to use my rig..any time, any place.

I rufuse to use your Aerco...It's tainted

[Brian Skalinder]

The question of lower capsule polarization (60v from CMC6/NBox v. 48v from Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 and now v. whatever the CMR provides) gets raised fairly regularly, including in this thread, often touted as a reason one system is "superior" to another.  I've already linked to Schoeps' response regarding 48v v. 60v capsule polarization earlier in this thread.  Here's a supporting comment regarding the impact of lower polarization voltage from one of our most knowledgeable TSers:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137997.msg1790433#msg1790433