Topic: Why do most opera/concert DVD’s sound like shit on my system?

[noam]

My DVD player is hooked up via the optical out to a D/A convertor>XLR’s>2 monoblocks>speakers. All the
components are stereophile class B or A and since I have used this setup (whose rational is to use the
shortest pathway for the signal) I get superb sound from CD’s, but opera and concert DVD’s sound shrill,
metallic and constricted, colored with emphasis on the mid-highs. Not all DVD’s sound equally bad – newer
ones, particularly from the Universal group with an LPCM sound track may sound a little better, but they
still never sound as good as CD’s. I have just assumed that DVD’s’ sound sucks and that’s the way it is.

Here is where things get complicated. I use Schoeps mk4's/mks'2S's>lemosax>SONY PCM D1 and get superb results
burning them to CD’s. Another member of this board (Jeff) is using every imaginable high-end mic
and other high-end gear in high resolution 24bit/96Hz or 192Hz and gets superb results burning them to
sampled down CD’s or to DVD-A’s using DiscWelder Steel software. They all sound sensational on my system (my
player does DVD-A’s.) I lately went on the 24bit/96Hz wagon and burn the results to sampled down CD’s or to
audio-DVD’s (NOT DVD-A’s) using a program called Audio DVD Creator. These are basically video DVD’s with just
still images or black background and a soundtrack that can be as high as 24bit/96Hz and can play on any DVD player.

The problem is that my sampled down CD versions sound superb, but the DVD ones sound like most DVD’s on AC3
– shrill, boxy, thin bass, artificially bright mid-highs, even though the DVD is LPCM, and high resolution at that.

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital
optical/coaxial outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue connections. Yet my player
is set up NOT to do that and the sound quality I get cannot be explained be sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3 signal or some form of mpeg from the
digital out!

I cannot use the analog connections because the player is outputting to a D/A convertor (which serves in
effect as a pre-amp), obviously with no analog in. I tried playing with the settings on my player and it makes no
difference.

Any idea?

Happy New Year

Noam

[BC]

Why? In most DVD players the higher sampling rate is often down-converted to the 16 bitrate in the digital
optical/coaxial outputs. Many players only output a 24 bitrate from the analogue connections. Yet my player
is set up NOT to do that and the sound quality I get cannot be explained be sampling down from 24 to 16
bitrate. It can only be explained if my player is outputting an AC3 signal or some form of mpeg from the
digital out!


Any idea?

Happy New Year

Noam

you could try going analog out of the DVD player directly to your power amps. This might give you some clue as to what is going on. If it still sounds crappy, you can probably rule out downsampling/conversion at the digi out as the culprit.

I doubt that you are really seeing an AC3 (ha ha, I don't even know what AC3 is ) or mpeg signal from the digi out, I don't think your DA converter would lock onto those signal formats.  But I am not positive on that one...   Does your DA indicate what sample rate and bit depth it is seeing?

edit: oh ya,  I just remembered AC3 is some kind of compression. 

[BC]

Can you get a hold of your buddy Jeff's raw high-res WAV files? I think a good test would be to get one of his DVD-A discs, along with the raw WAV files that were used to make the DVD-A. Then take the WAV's and make your audio-DVD from them. You can then compare the sound of the DVD-A vs. audio DVD from identical high-res source material.

[noam]

Can you get a hold of your buddy Jeff's raw high-res WAV files? I think a good test would be to get one of his DVD-A discs, along with the raw WAV files that were used to make the DVD-A. Then take the WAV's and make your audio-DVD from them. You can then compare the sound of the DVD-A vs. audio DVD from identical high-res source material.

I did exactly that: sampled down CD version and DVD-A version sounded perfect on my setup; same file on A-DVD sounded like shit. Does that prove it's the Audio DVD Creator software? No, because the shitty Audio DVD sounded like all shitty commercial music DVD's. It may have to do with the copyright protection mechanism on the player, which may distort and downgrade (in addition to downsample) the signal coming from video DVD's (Audio DVD is a video DVD) but doesn't touch CD's and DVD-A's.

Does anyone here have this kind of setup (DVD player>digi out>DAC), where the DVD player is happily married to the external DAC (i.e., good sound from music video DVD's)?

Noam

[JasonSobel]

although it doesn't answer your question, if DVD-Audio discs have no problem in your system, why not just burn DVD-Audio discs with your live shows?  There's free software to make stereo LPCM DVD-Audio discs available, so, in my mind, there is no need to use the audio-dvd-creator in the first place.

having said that...

Does anyone here have this kind of setup (DVD player>digi out>DAC), where the DVD player is happily married to the external DAC (i.e., good sound from music video DVD's)?

that's the setup I have, Denon DVD player > digi out > DAC, and it work great, both with DVD-Audio discs and DVD-Video discs.  although I don't use the audio-DVD-creator software very often, I have made a few discs with it, and they play great.

it sounds like your player handles digital output from DVD-Audio and DVD-Video differently.  maybe look through the manual or try contacting the manufacturer to see if you can get the full story...

[bgalizio]

Try this LPlex software and see how it does for the DVD-V audio discs. I find it very odd that your DVD-V discs sound noticably worse than the DVD-A discs you made.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/audioplex/

[noam]

  There's free software to make stereo LPCM DVD-Audio discs available,

Which software is that?

that's the setup I have, Denon DVD player ...

Thanks for the tip about Denon - Noam

[JasonSobel]

  There's free software to make stereo LPCM DVD-Audio discs available,

Which software is that?

I highly recommend using DVD-Audiofile to create DVD-Audio discs.
you can download it here:
http://crush.epix.net/~scb/index.php?path=dvd-audiofile/
and it's discussed in great length here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,52892.0.html

basically, it's just a front-end GUI (created by Scott Brown, on this forum) that makes use of the DVD-Audio tools developed here:
http://dvd-audio.sourceforge.net/

the program creates a disc image (i.e. it creates an .ISO file) of the DVD-Audio disc.  you can then burn the disc image using Nero, or any other program that burns disc images.  I use ImgBurn, also a free program that can be downloaded here:
http://www.imgburn.com/

hope this helps you out.
- Jason

[Nick's Picks]

this is how I do DVD-A as well.
Bravo Scott B!, in case you haven't heard that enough.

[noam]

I received my new Denon DVD 2910 yesterday and hooked it up to the DAC1 via optical. The improvement in the sound quality of DVD-V’s of all kinds is dramatic, simply unbelievable. One after the other all these shitty DVD’s I have lost hope on have deep, impressive bass that makes the speakers/headphones kick; rich open sound and voices are not so upfront but have depth. For the first time LPCM does sound like the best format for soundtracks when there are several options. CD’s or DVD-A’s are not that much better that I can detect it right away, but a friend’s Don Carlo that had clipping all over it is now free of any clipping. I can now use the >> and << functions on audio-DVD’s burned with the Audio DVD Creator, which I couldn’t with the older player.

I can’t believe I’ve subjected myself to the crappy sound coming out of DVD soundtracks played on the older DVD player for 3 years, based on my theory that all zeros and ones coming out of digital outputs are the same. They definitely are not the same and apparently the digital stage is a lot more complicated than just outputting zeros and ones.

If that was not enough, I discovered to my dismay that the new player not only plays PAL DVD’s, but also converts them to NTSC for my ancient NTSC-only TV. I can now play my HARDY PAL Orange Caballe/Vickers 1973 Norma for the first time with good sound (considering the source) and good picture. There is a remote control hack for the region code, but I am hesitating about it, lest it will affect certain outputs. Needless to say I am very excited – it’s like I got an entirely new DVD collection – the sound is that much better.

For the time being it reduces my motivation for stealthing a little bit, because these DVD’s do sound good, but I’m sure I shall recover.

Incidentally, I found whole threads online raving about the wonders of this DVD player.


Noam

[BC]

great, glad you got that problem solved!

Just wondering, what was your old player? Good to know so I can stay away from it. 

[noam]

great, glad you got that problem solved!

Just wondering, what was your old player? Good to know so I can stay away from it. 

Panasonic S55 - no longer available.

Noam

[Nick's Picks]

Nice job Noam.
+T

[noam]

great, glad you got that problem solved!

Just wondering, what was your old player? Good to know so I can stay away from it. 

Panasonic S55 - no longer available.

Noam

Elias Gwinn from Benchmark tested several DVD players for “bit transparency”, i.e., how accurately they output through the digital outputs the bits. As far as I understand what he explained, they burnt a series of short signals into a CD and compared what they put in with what came out from the digital connections. They found out that my old player, a cheap Panasonic S55 (no longer available) performed extremely poorly. Unfortunately, they cannot have information about every player.

He also tested the cheap Panasonic S47 and the cheap Pioneer 578 - they were both fine, or "bit transparent" but are both no longer available. They think that the Panasonic S97 should be fine, but they really haven't tested it. So it's not exactly a question of cheap or expensive, but I would assume those higher quality well reviewed (and more expensive) players should be more likely to be "bit transparent."

Also, DENON tech support told me all their 2xxx and up series DO NOT downsample from the digital connections (most players do not.)

Noam

[carlbeck]

I I can’t believe I’ve subjected myself to the crappy sound coming out of DVD soundtracks played on the older DVD player for 3 years, based on my theory that all zeros and ones coming out of digital outputs are the same. They definitely are not the same and apparently the digital stage is a lot more complicated than just outputting zeros and ones.

 
 


Noam

I fell for that load of crap too a few years ago until I tested a few transports & players going into my DAC. There is a difference for sure, blind test or not it is obvious. Glad you worked your way through it, enjoy.