Topic: Recorded for the first time in 7 years... terrible results... input needed plz

[su6oxone]

You should be running those 3wire 853s with a 3wire power supply, not a soundpros 2wire BB. That is paramount. If you don't, they will clip at high spls, if you do what I said, they will not clip. Also,with loud shows, run >line in , not >mic in.

Hi, and thx.  Do you know if the Church 9100 preamp is 3-wire?  +T

[nameloc01]

You'd have to ask Chris.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I love the r09 BUT... It distorts bass if you run the level setting below 8.  7 may be okay, 6 is getting risky.
 
You ran the r09 at 4, so I would expect the bass to distort badly.  You will get the distortion even if the levels never go above -6dB (they generally won't go above that when this is happening).  You can easily reproduce this by hooking the r09 up to your stereo, etc. To run with levels that hot, you will need an attenuator.  Probably -10 or -15.

As other folks have mentioned, the 853's can have other issues in bass-heavy environments. That may have also contributed to the problem.

[su6oxone]

I love the r09 BUT... It distorts bass if you run the level setting below 8.  7 may be okay, 6 is getting risky.
 
You ran the r09 at 4, so I would expect the bass to distort badly.  You will get the distortion even if the levels never go above -6dB (they generally won't go above that when this is happening).  You can easily reproduce this by hooking the r09 up to your stereo, etc. To run with levels that hot, you will need an attenuator.  Probably -10 or -15.

As other folks have mentioned, the 853's can have other issues in bass-heavy environments. That may have also contributed to the problem.

FreeLunch, thank you for your input, +T.  Didn't know about the bass distortion below input level of 8 ("unity" I guess).  I'm planning on using a 9100 preamp for future tapings, so hopefully that will help, and perhaps using bass roll off (80khz on the 9100 I think) will help even if I have to use levels below 8, although hopefully I won't.  Think I'll have to go to a few more "practice" shows to get some more experimenting before I tape the Cult and Van Halen in April.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09?  A simple 1/8 to 1/8 inline attenuator would be inexpensive insurance to have on hand.

[Belexes]

Wouldn't adding a pre-amp to the chain result in even higher levels at the r09? 

If he runs 8+ on the R-09 and 11:00 O'Clock on the 9100, he should be fine, with any needed gain to be had from the pre.

[SmokinJoe]

Thank you guys for your input.  I did use the line-in, used a new 9V battery, and had the input only at 4.  Perhaps I should set the input at 2 or 3?

I believe it's overloaded mics.  I have AT-853s > batt box > R-09 line in.  If the volume is such that I get nice levels with gain at 20, then it's not "too loud" and it will sound great.  If I have to run the gain down around 8 then it's loud enough that the AT853s are being squashed.  If you are at 4, you are definitely seeing that.

We're talking standard At-853s, not 3 wire, not 4.7k mod... here right?  and I they don't like FOB 120db stuff.

That's my 2 cents worth anyway...

[nameloc01]

Standard 853s are 3 wire, and if you run them 3 wire they will not clip at 120db. I do it all the time.a 2 wire wire BB do not power them correctly and they will clip at moderate to loud spls. Simple as that.

[nameloc01]

I'm gonna say this, then go feed my pitbull some kittens,...

Go here:
www.collectiveunconscious.org

Click on the 2007 at the top.
Go to the info/source pages for these shows:
6/5/07. 6/7/07. 7/1/03.(My source)  7/3/07.(My source)

Listen to the samples. TOOL are one of the loudest bands around. These shows were recorded using a 3wire setup, notice there is no clipping. Those mics need to be powered correcly to achieve maximum performance.

[su6oxone]

Thank you guys for your input.  I did use the line-in, used a new 9V battery, and had the input only at 4.  Perhaps I should set the input at 2 or 3?

I believe it's overloaded mics.  I have AT-853s > batt box > R-09 line in.  If the volume is such that I get nice levels with gain at 20, then it's not "too loud" and it will sound great.  If I have to run the gain down around 8 then it's loud enough that the AT853s are being squashed.  If you are at 4, you are definitely seeing that.

We're talking standard At-853s, not 3 wire, not 4.7k mod... here right?  and I they don't like FOB 120db stuff.

That's my 2 cents worth anyway...

Thanks for all the continued input and advice everyone!  Such a great site. 

SmokinJoe:
Yes, they are standard, unmodded AT853 mics, with a SP SPSB-2 9V battery pack and the R-09 using line-in.  Since you have the same setup (well, one of your setups), what do you think the issue is?  Is it odd to have to bring the input down to 4 at an average (not ear-splitting) loud rock show?  I thought the 9V would be enough for the AT853s, unless they are malfunctioning.  One thing I should have tried at the show is plugging the mics directly into the line-in and see if the levels changed without the battery box hooked up.  I'll need to do some testing at home tomorrow.  Hopefully it'll be better when I can try the 9100 instead of this old battery box!  Thx for the input, +T. 

[su6oxone]

Listen to the samples. TOOL are one of the loudest bands around. These shows were recorded using a 3wire setup, notice there is no clipping. Those mics need to be powered correcly to achieve maximum performance.

I'll have to ask Chris at SP about the battery box being 2 or 3 wire (I don't even know what that means really, guess I'll do a search heh).  Thx for the info!

[nameloc01]

I just told you what the exact problem was,you apparently do not want the answer.
Good luck.

[nameloc01]

I'm sure its a 2w.Chris at soundpros is gonna tell you the exact same thing I just did. 3w mics were meant to be ran with a 3w supply...not 3w mics with a 2w supply. That's why they are clipping. Very simple. Listen to those samples,you will see what I mean. You power them right, there isn't any concert that's gonna cause them to clip,not going to happen. Again, if you don't believe me,listen to those samples.

[su6oxone]

I'm sure its a 2w.Chris at soundpros is gonna tell you the exact same thing I just did. 3w mics were meant to be ran with a 3w supply...not 3w mics with a 2w supply. That's why they are clipping. Very simple. Listen to those samples,you will see what I mean. You power them right, there isn't any concert that's gonna cause them to clip,not going to happen. Again, if you don't believe me,listen to those samples.

Well, considering I bought both the AT853s and the battery box from SP, I'm not sure Chris would say that those mics shouldn't be run with that battery box for high SPL situations.  Also, I have used these mics with the same battery box to record loud rock shows without distortion or clipping years ago (only using a Sharp MD recorder and not the R-09) before my 7 year hiatus, so it's not entirely clear if it's the 2 or 3-wire issue or maybe just battery box malfuntion or an MD vs R-09 issue, but I will definitely investigate that possibility. 

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

[SmokinJoe]

I mis-spoke myself.  Sorry.  I thought 2 wire setup was "standard".  "Typical" would have been a better word.

By the way, if you run straight into line in with no batt box, you will have no power to the mics at all.  That's not going to work.