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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4  (Read 60702 times)

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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2024, 12:50:47 PM »
Quote
I'm leaning toward the slightly starfish shaped version over the inflated pentagon.
excellent design concept(s)
I like the starfish version. Seems more "flexible" for your storage style
music IS love

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2024, 10:40:55 AM »
Yeah, functionally, I think they'd work pretty much same.   I mostly think the starfish version just looks cooler and more purposefully designed!  Going to go with that one.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2024, 12:48:34 PM »
Haven't cut any metal yet but now have a few different windscreen options for the new center stereo shotgun.

Posted some photos of modding a Movo windscreen to make it the correct length in a separate thread this morning: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204450.msg2408439#msg2408439
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2024, 06:20:56 PM »
This is probably the finest, to my ears, OMT4 recording we have done since using the DPA 4061's as our Omnis.
The venue is basically outdoors with a nicely shaped wooden roof.
ENJOY
(If anyone wants the raw samples I can provide)
N2: https://archive.org/details/phish2024-08-10akgck3dpa4061
MDAUD OMT4
microphones:
ch1/2: AKGck3  (hypercardioid) PAS > Grace Lunatec V2 >
ch3/4: DPA 4061 (omnidirectional) spread 8 feet apart>
recorder: Tascam DR-680|SD
processing: SD| Audacity|cdwaveditor|TLH|foobar2000 tagger

The rig pic shows the ck3s in the multi color ratties and we had the DPA's on windtech clamps on stands with an 8 foot spread this night
(Also more rig pics in the "see more" dropdown photo area)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 06:27:32 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Offline checht

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2024, 07:16:08 PM »
So cool!

8' seems like a lot, did you listen to just omnis much before mixing? Jim and Doug used to run a spread that big or larger outdoors at the Greek and Frost, with nothing in the middle, and we loved'd the sound, so I'm curious about how yours sounds...

Nice work!
MK41s, MK22s; Vanguard V1s matched pair
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2024, 09:52:27 PM »
So cool!

8' seems like a lot, did you listen to just omnis much before mixing? Jim and Doug used to run a spread that big or larger outdoors at the Greek and Frost, with nothing in the middle, and we loved'd the sound, so I'm curious about how yours sounds...

Nice work!
I did. There did not seem to be too much hole in the middle, BUT, every time, the addition of the center channels seemed to make things "snap into place". There is a serious amount of warmth with the just omnis. I recall the OADE's would do those plexiglass plates and the spread omnis. I was patched out of them for GD Austin 1985 where they ran spread omni schoeps with a middle channel. "like butter"     8)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2024, 12:38:06 PM »
I've been out of town and haven't had time to comment here yet but that Bethel Woods show sounds great Rock!

To my ear, nothing conveys the same depth, warmth, and a the same sense of "big, natural sounding there-ness" like a good wide omni spread.  Totally agreed with the "snap into place" comment.  The center pair really nails down a solid center anchor along with upfront midrange articulation and clarity. 

I realize that I tend to think of and describe this stuff from a point of view that's the opposite of how most tapers tend to think about and approach it - for me the omnis are the primary foundation and the center pair improves things by reinforcing what is needed but to some degree already present in the omnis, just weak.  Most tapers probably think of it the other way around, considering the center pair as the primary pair and the omnis a the "nice to have addition" which improves the center pair.  Does that conceptual difference matter in any way? Probably not.  Mostly just a philosophical difference I suppose, but I do wonder how that plays out in how folks approach taping.  Looking at it from the opposite perspective, is the stuff the omnis provide that the center pair lacks on its own already there in the center pair but just weak?  Some of it sure, but I do think one fundamental difference is that the spaced omnis provide good diffuse field decorrelation, or rather, achieve sufficiently low diffuse field correlation (..which is what non-taper acousticians and recording engineers associate with the contraction DFC. It doesn't read as Dead F****** Center to them) responsible for much of the perceived depth, warmth, and a the sense of "big, natural sounding there-ness" of the room ambience and audience portrayal.  That isn't just weak in most near-spaced or coincident center pairs, its not really there at all.. maybe it is in a Blumlein pair, but that's more of a special case, and in a Blumlein pair the balance of that stuff verses the direct sound from the stage and PA isn't adjustable afterward in the same way that it is in a OMT4 arrangement.

So cool!

8' seems like a lot, did you listen to just omnis much before mixing? Jim and Doug used to run a spread that big or larger outdoors at the Greek and Frost, with nothing in the middle, and we loved'd the sound, so I'm curious about how yours sounds...

Nice work!

As I've probably speculated about too many times already in the OMT threads and elsewhere (apologies for repeating myself too much), outside of the microcosm of concert taping, recording a PA from a position in the audience presents a very strange acoustic scenario.  I think a wide omni pair is capable of working alright on its own in that situation, without necessarily producing an egregious hole-in-the-middle as would be expected in a more typical recording situation, partly because of the unusual geometric relationship between two wide spaced PA arrays and the wide-spaced omni pair, combined with having a large degree of correlated mono content through the PA (the solid center stuff).  The mono content from the separated PA stacks positioned on opposite sides of the stage reaches each omni on the same side in a phase coherent way, while the cross-path from the PA on the opposite is delayed by some milliseconds.  While the non-mono decorrelated stuff through the PA (there is probably more of that than  panned correlated content) is further decorrelated to both omnis. That's a very unusual acoustic situation that will only occur with a wide spaced PA and a relatively wide-spaced omni pair centered and oriented parallel to it.

I think that's why wide omni splits can work for tapers while they otherwise wouldn't elsewhere, even though it's almost always better with the addition of a center pair (or SBD). 

If all this reads as Greek, just ignore it! 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline unclehoolio

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2024, 07:20:19 PM »
Question for ya, Gut, on the recommended forward spacing of the center position mic(s) in say, an OMT4 config.   Instead of rigging up the center position mic(s) in real time to be the recommended amount of inches forward of the spaced pair, can't this distance be created or dialed-in in post, by sliding tracks/channels forward, or backwards, in time in your audio editing software?
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Offline capnhook

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2024, 08:26:56 PM »


Hmmm, only inches of forward placement?  Considering sound moves ~1ft/msec, that's pretty insignificant


Yes, use your editing software to move your center mic forward in time

Same thing

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2024, 09:43:08 AM »
Just got back after a month away without connectivity.  Catching up..

Question for ya, Gut, on the recommended forward spacing of the center position mic(s) in say, an OMT4 config.   Instead of rigging up the center position mic(s) in real time to be the recommended amount of inches forward of the spaced pair, can't this distance be created or dialed-in in post, by sliding tracks/channels forward, or backwards, in time in your audio editing software?

TLDR; Don't worry about center position forward spacing too much, it's far less important than achieving sufficient spacing along the L/R axis.  Best to physically space things for reasons I'll go into below, but correcting with delay or sliding tracks along the timeline can often compensate well enough when physical spacing cant be achieved.  Sometimes both in combination does the trick. If you can position the center microphone/pair forward a bit, do that.  Don't worry too much about exactly how far. Anything up to about 9" or so should be fine.

If playing with delaying or shifting tracks in post, whatever sounds right is right.


Hmmm, only inches of forward placement?  Considering sound moves ~1ft/msec, that's pretty insignificant

Yes, use your editing software to move your center mic forward in time

Same thing

 :coolguy:

The difference between DIN, DINa, and NOS is also just a matter of just a few inches - significant or not?  I think it best to think of center-forward spacing in a similar light.. its mostly about smooth imaging-linking / image-distribution.  In the grand scheme of things that kind of stuff is a nice to have luxury. There are many other more important things to focus on first.  But its real.

Whether time-shifting is the same and not.. and is significant or not, depends on how you look at it and what is being considered.  In someway it is, in others it very much isn't.

How is it different?
Changing the physical spacing between two microphones affects time arrival in a specific way along the spacing axis.  It makes for a positive time shift in one direction along that axis, a negative time-shift in the opposite direction, and no change in time-of-arrival for a plane wave arriving perpendicular to that axis.  The directional vector is a critical aspect.

Applying delay or shifting one track along the time-line applies a positive or negative time shift for all direction of arrival. It's vectorless.  It will do the exact opposite of a position shift for sound arriving from the opposite direction.

Manipulation of position and manipulation of time are inherently linked yet different in some important ways.  Great when we can use one to compensate for the other, but can't always.

Some multichannel mic arrays require a combination of both to work optimally, but that's getting too complex for me.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2024, 10:39:09 PM »


I call bullshit

Calibrating for a mic pair physically placed forward/backward in relationship to a spaced pair is exactly the same result as sliding the waveforms forward/backwards



If you recall, weeks ago the OP's question was "Instead of rigging up the center position mic(s) in real time to be the recommended amount of inches forward of the spaced pair, can't this distance be created or dialed-in in post, by sliding tracks/channels forward, or backwards, in time in your audio editing software?"


Yes, yes it can
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2024, 10:28:45 AM »
Chill out Kevin,  No BS here except yours.  Is it the same? No it isn't, demonstrably so and without question. Will it achieve what he wants? Most probably yes. Underpinning all this and as stated previously, its not the most important thing to be concerned about. 

More fundamentally, in these OMT threads we discuss multichannel recording methods that are more complex than what is tends to be discussed elsewhere at TS.  In support of that, we get into a more detailed analysis of what's going on in terms of acoustics.  If you are content with simple yet incomplete and partially incorrect answers that's entirely your prerogative, but this isn't the thread for it.

If you honestly still think its exactly the same thing, I'm happy to walk you through why it's not. I described above how physically spacing two microphone positions is different than applying a time-shift to one of the channels relative to the other in the abstract, but an example may help illustrate the difference more clearly..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2024, 10:35:20 AM »
Lets imagine this example-

Captnhook is recording an Americana band from a position is out in the center of the audience, and decides to try a 3 channel multi-microphone recording arrangement, lets say a small Decca tree consisting of three omnis arranged in a broad triangle. The good Capt'n was able to achieve the wide 48" left-right microphone-position spacing he wanted, but due to the limitations of his mic-bar he was unable to space the center microphone forward of the other two microphones by the 24" he was hoping to achieve, so instead, he has all three microphones are arranged along a line.  "No problem", he thinks to himself, "I'll just delay the L/R pair to effectively shift them backwards in time with respect to the center mic channel, that will achieve the same thing as physically spacing them".

A rowdy audience excitedly files in.  They know all the songs and have brought their own noise makers along to join in with the revelry.  The accordion player takes the stage, nods at the good Capt'n and rips into the first number.  Sure enough, almost immediately there is a young man furiously playing polyrhythms on a triangle off to the left of the recording position, a woman banging on a small tambourine to the right, and two guys tooting a penny whistles directly behind.  Fortunately everyone is in tune and in the groove.  What could have been a nightmare audience for a good recording turns into a beautiful and engaging live-performance experience.  Everyone heads home smiling.

Capt'n gets home, transfers the files and gets to work.. To simulate the center microphone being positioned forward of the Left/Right by 24", he applies a delay of 2ms to the Left and Right mic channels, since it takes about 2ms for a wavefront to travel 24".  He zooms in and looks at the waveforms to find the first crack of the snare.  The wavefront from the drummer hitting the snare pings the center mic channel about 2 milliseconds prior to the Left and Right mic channels.  Great, it works!

But what about the other sources of sound?  The wavefront from the polyrhythmic triangle player off to the left would normally ping the left mic 2ms before the center mic, and 4ms before the right mic (First left, then center, then right, with 2ms between each arrival).  But instead it pings both left and center channels simultaneously, and doesn't ping the right channel until 4ms later. Hmm.  For the penny-whistle players its even worse.  The sound from the penny-whistle players in back should arrive at the Left/Right channels 2ms before it arrives at the center channel out front, but instead it does the exact opposite- arriving at the center channel 2ms ahead of the Left/Right channels.. as if the two penny-whistle players and all the audience with them in back were actually standing out in front of the recording position, rather than behind it.

Most definitely not the same! Similar time-of-arrival distortions occur with any sound that arrives from any direction other than directly in front, including the PA speaker positions to the left and right of the stage.

How much this difference matters depends, and that's a different discussion. Sometimes it won't matter, sometimes it will, sometimes a lot.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 10:38:58 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2024, 10:41:13 AM »


Lee you misunderstood the OP's question..


"Instead of rigging up the center position mic(s) in real time to be the recommended amount of inches forward of the spaced pair, can't this distance be created or dialed-in in post, by sliding tracks/channels forward, or backwards, in time in your audio editing software?"


Yes is the only answer, merely a shift forward/backward can be accomplished by sliding waveforms forward/backwards in software



Bullshit still in play here I see..
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BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline grawk

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2024, 11:07:05 AM »
The answer is still no.  It can be simulated, but it's not the same.  Whether that matters to you is up to you.
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