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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4  (Read 60707 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2025, 05:50:43 PM »
Found these from 2019 using the Shure windscreens, prior to the various repairs and implementation of the Movo windscreens.  A couple of the Movos required gaff taping connection to the arms until now. This reflects how the rig was with the foundational tape only, mostly used just to route wires.

Recording NC stream burbles
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2025, 06:02:28 PM »
Last Sunday night. Directly behind the board, which was positioned relatively close that night. Worked out well. Promoters came by to give the thumbs up. Sound guy and bands happy. Audience sees this rig there regularly with no complaints. Couldn't do this kind of thing everywhere, but works it out nicely here.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline F0CKER

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2025, 10:51:03 AM »
Gut, do you have any of your recordings posted anywhere to grab a listen?
DPA 2015, 4011, 4018VL
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2025, 11:25:41 AM »
Sorry, other than a few things posted here over the years, I don't.  I'm rarely able to make the time to properly mix these down to 2-ch stereo, but I've long planned on working toward doing that for the ones I am able to share.. for everyone but especially for you folks following these threads.  Life pulls hard in many directions.  Will see if I can work toward getting there in 2025. 

Until then if you ever find yourself in South Florida hit me up. We can don headphones and I'll play a few things directly off the 8 channel recorder.  Actually most enlightening to do it that way, as you can clearly hear what happens upon muting/unmuting the various channels and how they collectively work together.  I need to figure out a way of doing that for specific examples in these threads.  A video that visually shows the switching between which channels are active is probably the best route for doing that, other than simply doing it in person.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2025, 12:45:55 PM »
Interesting examples of the application of "Blumlein shuffling" have been posted by Voltronic over in the Acoustic Recording Thread, followed by my analysis and some discussion of what's going on with it.  To avoid the oversaturation of that thread with a discussion of how shuffling might be applicable to multi-mic arrays such as OMT setups, I'm continuing that discussion here.

Here's where I left off over there-
Thanks for starting the conversation on shuffling with your examples.  Super interesting stuff.  Hope I haven't gone too deep into this for the others following.

A few of my conclusions-
  • I'm now convinced that a not overly wide spacing in combination with shuffling is an optimal arrangement for a stereo pair of omnis when used on their own.. in most cases - there are always exceptions and I think those tend to arise in taper situations more so than typical recording scenarios. The oddity of superwide 20-30 foot omnis splits sometimes working great for PA amplified stuff without suffering a "hole in the middle" is an example of that.
  • This is great news for tapers!  Less wide spacings are far, far, far more practical, achievable, and less-imposing.
  • Application of shuffling may make for an improvement of any taper recordings made with a coincident or near-spaced pair.  That's most of them.
  • Thinking about how it might apply or not to multi-microphone arrays, meaning those which include a microphone, pair, or more mics placed in the center between a wider spaced pair. Forgive one additional indulgence in thought experiment about that before I let this go..  actually, strike that.  Probably best if I take that over to the OMT thread.

My first thought is that in a multichannel mic array which is to be summed to stereo (specifically  3-position PAS and OMT) we'll still need to get the microphones of the channels that are going to be summed far enough apart to mix without conflict.  The mics feeding the channels to be summed either need to be close enough together or far enough apart* to avoid potential problems that can arise when positioned somewhere between - the sort of all-or-nothing, inverse Goldilocks problem of mono-compatibly.  Shuffling may not be of help with that.  We can experiment to find out of course. And fertile ground for trying that is remixing multichannel OMT recordings in which less than the desired amount of spacing was used for whatever reason.

Second is how and where shuffling might be applied.  To keep it simple, let's assume a 3-channel arrangement which consists of two omnis with a cardioid in the middle.  The addition of the cardioid in the middle, along with providing other benefits, fixes many of the things that are problematic with a wider omni spacing, but it's introduction also requires that the spacing be made wider.  Alternately it might be a 3-mic triplet of angled directional mics that are able to use somewhat less spacing. Either way, in this thought experiment I'm using a narrower spacing than I'd would otherwise prefer, and attempting to compensate with the application of shuffling. 

I see three potential ways of applying shuffling to the raw 3 channel L/C/R output from the array when mixing that down to 2-ch L/R stereo:
1) Shuffling is applied to just the L/R outside mic pair prior to mixing.  ..Or to to the L/R mixed stereo output.  Either way the result should be the same as the contribution of the single center mic is made identically to both L/R channels, effecting only the Sum not the Difference.  This is the essentially the same as adding shuffling to any existing recording.
2) Shuffling is applied to L/C, and C/R, but not to L/R.
3) Shuffling is applied to L/C, C/R, and to L/R.

#2 and #3 are the interesting ones unique to a three channel array.  Fun to think about what's going on with those.

Might it address the potential for imaging conflicts in a 3-channel, 3-position array from having three different SRAs in play in such an arrangement? One for the L/C pair, another for the C/R pair and a third for the L/R pair.  As posted about here an in a few other threads a few months back, we can arrange for the L/C and C/R imaging segments to "hand-off smoothly to the other" by way of "steering" their SRAs via forward spacing of the center mic.  If all the mics were placed along a single line those two SRA's would overlap each other in the center rather than the inner edge of the two SRAs lining up to affect a smooth hand off from one to the other across the center.  The problem is there's also an SRA associated with the L/R mic pair, and that SRA is considerably narrower than the combined SRA of L/C + C/R.

The question is, does shuffling alter SRA?  If only at low frequencies where the shuffling filtering is active?  Can we use that to our advantage in this situation? Can we get the combined SRA L/C + C/R closer to the SRA of L/R with a clever application of shuffling?

I'll have to think about this some more.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline F0CKER

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2025, 06:32:27 PM »
I finally got a chance to run the new OMT4 setup. This is moe. from Friday and Saturday nights at Brooklyn Bowl Philly. I ran DPA2015 wide card about 2 feet spread, with 4018VL hypers XY in the center about 4 inches in front. I'm going to experiment with pushing the hypers forward more, in addition to swapping out the XY with just a single forward facing 4011 as a center channel. More to come. I think the results are really nice I'm definitely a believer. There's a punch but an openness to it as well. Really interesting to play around with

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZIlpRH27teHgOSKM388h2ms94F45zJ0-?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uvQJaRMAKMIYa8qIFm2zFdhxQtJPS1Iy?usp=drive_link

« Last Edit: March 02, 2025, 08:24:56 PM by F0CKER »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2025, 11:54:21 AM »
Right on.  Glad you're liking what you hear. I'm on my way out of town for a week but will give a listen next week upon my return. Your description sounds like what I like and listen for in these setups- punch and clarity along with openness and depth.

Yeah, will be good to compare against a single center mic.. And as an extension of that, if you have a fig-8 consider Mid/Side in the center, since that way you can go from single center mic to coincident stereo center by simply adding as much or little Side channel as you prefer afterward.  That makes for a very cool post tweak.  Without a fig-8.. if you find you prefer the X/Y in the center over a single center channel, try playing around with X/Y angle.  90-degrees is a safe start, but narrower (so as to get that pair closer to PAS) in combination with a stereo width tweak afterward to taste, is similar to a Mid/Side mic setup. 

[edit]- If up for it, try adjusting the stereo width of the center X/Y pair afterward regardless of what X/Y angle you use.  You can try that with the recordings you've already made.  It's sort of the "secret sauce" for me when mixing these arrays down to stereo.  Sometimes the amount of width used for the center pair when mixed with the wider-spaced pair ends up being about the same as I'd use for a center coincident-stereo pair on its own, and other times I use less.  However, I almost always prefer at least a little touch of width/side-channel there.  Very fun to hear what it's addition does in the mix.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2025, 12:08:36 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline VibrationOfLife

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2025, 02:44:00 AM »
Got to try a little OMT tonight on a trio with an xy pair in the center and some wide cards spread at about 10", lip of stage (sorta, it was on the ground) about 1.5' from the musicians.  Need to listen to it, but it was a fun experimental little compact setup.

Now this is some bad ass shit here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxC1xiIkxd4

Offline F0CKER

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2025, 10:18:30 AM »
Here's God Street Wine from last night, running LCR. 2015s out about 2 feet and 45 degrees, and a 4011 as the center channel about 8 inches in front of the 2015s. Ended up putting in a bit more of the 2015s than the 4011. Sounds good

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1sSGLcXNdCMH7n3dkIzMMKXISJEprol5q?usp=drive_link

folders for the raw files and the matrixed show for reference
DPA 2015, 4011, 4018VL
Sonosax SX-R4

Offline Billy Mumphrey

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2025, 04:18:47 PM »
Here's God Street Wine from last night, running LCR. 2015s out about 2 feet and 45 degrees, and a 4011 as the center channel about 8 inches in front of the 2015s. Ended up putting in a bit more of the 2015s than the 4011. Sounds good

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1sSGLcXNdCMH7n3dkIzMMKXISJEprol5q?usp=drive_link

folders for the raw files and the matrixed show for reference

Listened to a couple of the processed tracks, and a center mic 8 inches ahead still sounds good to me. Just like you mention, there's a lot of good stereo openness, but also a punch / clarity mixed in from the hyper. Kind of a best-of-both-worlds. I wonder how far that center mic has to go before it starts to sound off or phasey....
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Offline F0CKER

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2025, 06:20:46 PM »
Ive not encountered any obvious phase issues with the two times Ive run like this. Both times I had the center mics forward anywhere from 4-8 inches. From everything I've read and what Gut has developed / documented. that seems to be the best approach - though others have noticed a smear when all four mics are not on the same plane. After listening to GSW and the LCR approach, I do think I'll go back to running the center as an XY pair a bit more, the single center channel here seems to be missing something that would be additive in a good way
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2025, 11:59:25 PM »
Ive not encountered any obvious phase issues with the two times Ive run like this. Both times I had the center mics forward anywhere from 4-8 inches. From everything I've read and what Gut has developed / documented. that seems to be the best approach - though others have noticed a smear when all four mics are not on the same plane. After listening to GSW and the LCR approach, I do think I'll go back to running the center as an XY pair a bit more, the single center channel here seems to be missing something that would be additive in a good way

I've quite often used a center cardioid or hyper and placed it 4in or so in front of the usually subcardioid main pair after reading about it in several places. In a couple of problematic muddy sounding venues it does a lot to give a forward facing sound that helps combat too much room and cuts through the mids and highs a little. I've tried various tricks at the mix with various results but using a high pass at 500hz on the center has worked out great a few times. Seems counter intuitive but it worked to snap the center "into place" so to speak.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2025, 01:47:10 PM »
I'm back in town as of this morning and will give a listen to the links you guys posted when I can.

Although I now aim for placing the center mic position around 20cm / 8" forward, I've had the coincident center-pair as far as about 15-20" forward of the L/R spaced pair or so without a problem, recording from both on stage and when positioned just front of the board about 30-40 feet back.   That was using one of these folding feet as a triangular mic-bar:



That folding foot comes provided with one drilled and tapped hole at the end of one leg, so I drilled and tapped the other two as well to use it as a triangular mic-bar, and the 18"-20" spacing equates to the diameter of it's footprint.  On stage I use it right-side-up, more or less an equilateral triangle about 20" each side with or without anything attached to the center stand part of the foot.  Back by the board I flip it upside down and put it atop a telescopic bar which is secured to a railing with a Superclamp.  Then the L/R pair legs get pushed straight out to either side in-line with each other, making the triangle a bit wider and shallower.  Guessing 24" wide by 15" deep or so.  No problem, and in the past have gone even further..

Way back when I was using four spaced omnis in a diamond array - think small Decca-tree which also included a rear omni - I had the center omni positioned anywhere from around 12" to 36" forward of L/R omnis, with all of them sphere  mounted.  Never noticed a smearing problem with that arrangement either, and mostly progressed from it to using directional mics in the center and later on in additional L/R positions as well as a way to reduce the spacing needed between mics as well as increase "reach" for less-optimal recording positions.  But that ~1 meter spaced four omni diamond-shaped array worked very nicely on stage, at stage-lip, and up close in the center of the audience.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2025, 01:53:10 PM »
I've quite often used a center cardioid or hyper and placed it 4in or so in front of the usually subcardioid main pair after reading about it in several places. In a couple of problematic muddy sounding venues it does a lot to give a forward facing sound that helps combat too much room and cuts through the mids and highs a little. I've tried various tricks at the mix with various results but using a high pass at 500hz on the center has worked out great a few times. Seems counter intuitive but it worked to snap the center "into place" so to speak.

Similarly, I find the center pair doesn't need to provide much low-mid and bass in the mix, and feel it best to get the lower frequency content from the wider-spaced pair anyway.  The somewhat typical low frequency roll-off of many super/hyper-cardioid directional mics that will tend to be used for the center pair sort of naturally achieves that, while more open-pattern mics which tend to be used in the L/R positions will provide more bass extension.   All of the directional mics in my array have somewhat reduced low-frequency sensitivity - smooth enough that I can correct for it with EQ when needed, but I mostly just balance that content against the omnis to achieve the correct frequency balance.  So that kind of filtering is somewhat built naturally into the array.

I suspect additional or more agressive high-passing or EQ may be helpful when using less spacing between the mics, since the closer together two mics which will be mixed together are the more potential they have for stepping on each other's toes, and filtering them differently is one potential way of easing any such potential conflict.  For those EQing, carefully tweaking the center microphone content into shape after balancing everything else can be particularly useful for pulling out a bit more vocal clarity and detail from that part of the stereo image without adversely effecting everything else in doing so.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2025, 02:10:09 PM »
Lee,
 You have a link to that triangle mount? we need one
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