Topic: Microtrack internal battery replacement... update ... help still needed

[KLowe]

Hey yall,
After having the MT shut down for YET ANOTHER SHOW  even with a external battery box in place.  I've decided that the MT is basically a POS.  Surprise!!!
 
Since I can't in good concience sell this thing in the yard sale here I've decidided to take it apart and replace the internal battery my damn self.  I'll probably blow it up b/c i know nothing about voltage etc.... but who cares.  Its all in the name of science.

From what I've gathered from other threads.  The internal MT battery is 3.7 li on battery right?  In theory could I replace this battery with any 3.7v li on battery that I find?  I know that the size of the battery matters but I'm thinking about making the replacement battery totally external anyway by drilling a hole in the back of the MT and running the black and red wires outside and basically ghetto rigging a battery to the outside of the box with tape.



Thanks,

Kevin

[Church-Audio]

Hey yall,
After having the MT shut down for YET ANOTHER SHOW  even with a external battery box in place.  I've decided that the MT is basically a POS.  Surprise!!!
 
Since I can't in good concience sell this thing in the yard sale here I've decidided to take it apart and replace the internal battery my damn self.  I'll probably blow it up b/c i know nothing about voltage etc.... but who cares.  Its all in the name of science.

From what I've gathered from other threads.  The internal MT battery is 3.7 li on battery right?  In theory could I replace this battery with any 3.7v li on battery that I find?  I know that the size of the battery matters but I'm thinking about making the replacement battery totally external anyway by drilling a hole in the back of the MT and running the black and red wires outside and basically ghetto rigging a battery to the outside of the box with tape.



Thanks,

Kevin

The only problem with that idea is the shitty little wires will break off the back of the circuit trace, if you want this mod to work use a low profile connector of some sort in the back of the MT. So you can simply plug in your external battery pack, make sure to protect the input with a in4001 diode. so that you are protected against polarity inversion. Put in two one for negative one for positive so that both sides with block dc going in the wrong direction. I would look at connectors by hirose, check out www.digikey.com they have all the hirose connectors you could ever want. The other problem with your mod is the battery meter is based on a battery with a known mA rating, if you go below it, the battery will drain to fast. If you go above it you will increase your run time but your battery gage will not be as accurate. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure the microcrapper's battery gage is based on firmware. Anyone know for sure please correct me.

Chris Church

[Brian Skalinder]

After having the MT shut down for YET ANOTHER SHOW  even with a external battery box in place.

Have you considered trying to track down the cause of your shutdown problems?  How long does the internal battery last?  Under what conditions (i.e. analog-in, how much gain, phantom power on/off, digital-in, etc.)?  What external battery pack?  Did you test to ensure it worked properly before using it in the field and having problems?  Etc.

[Church-Audio]

After having the MT shut down for YET ANOTHER SHOW  even with a external battery box in place.

Have you considered trying to track down the cause of your shutdown problems?  How long does the internal battery last?  Under what conditions (i.e. analog-in, how much gain, phantom power on/off, digital-in, etc.)?  What external battery pack?  Did you test to ensure it worked properly before using it in the field and having problems?  Etc.

Good advice maybe if its a brand new machine and the battery life is much less then expected you could return it under warranty? Before you hack it

[KLowe]

I have tested this thing.  Works great if plugged into a wall....will record an entire show at 24/48 into a microdrive.  But.... battery and external battery pack will not push this microdrive once the internal battery runs out.  I have tested the external battery pack and all is fine.  5 volts is there.  I'm sure I should just run a CF card and not a microdrive and see what happens. 

What I don't get is why does this thing work great when plugged into a wall but NOT work with the external battery pack (that I know is good).

Thanks for all of the help so far.  I hope I can get this figured out.

Oh yeah.. I only use this as a bit bucket SPDIF in from a UA-5 and all the phantom stuff..etc is OFF.

[KLowe]

Good advice maybe if its a brand new machine and the battery life is much less then expected you could return it under warranty? Before you hack it

Nope.  Bought it in the yard sale here and from what I read M-audio's customer service sucks a huge one.  So.  Just gonna try to see what I can do with it.  Ebay doesn't really seem like an option either since there are so many used ones for sale in much better shape.

[Brian Skalinder]

I have tested this thing.  Works great if plugged into a wall....will record an entire show at 24/48 into a microdrive.  But.... battery and external battery pack will not push this microdrive once the internal battery runs out.

Instead of plugging in the external pack once the internal battery gets low, try using the external power supply right off the bat, then switching to internal when the external runs out.  If you run down the internal, and then plug in the external, the external power source may be doing double duty:  charging the internal battery -and- providing the juice to operate the MT.  That may be drawing more current than the battery pack can provide, or may be enough current to draw the battery pack down more swiftly.

What external battery pack?  Maybe the problem is the battery pack and not the MT.

[willndmb]

my internal sucks ass too
fully charged with a microdrive i am lucky to get 1.5 hrs
however with a 4aa battery pack plugged in from the go i can get well over 3 hrs

i used the same aa for 3 shows only charging the internal between

[KLowe]

What external battery pack?  Maybe the problem is the battery pack and not the MT.

energizer 7.2v from oade into a segue interprise juice box.  I think you are on to something when you say that the external is pulling double duty.  That makes sense.
sad thing is that for Umphrey's on Friday I had the external plugged in to the MT at the start of the show...bc i new that the internal was going to die.

Really think if I replace the internal than all should be happy.  I just wish there was a way to completely bypass the internal and run strictly from an external source.  Charging up the internal from the battery pack has got to be what is causing all of the problems.

[Brian Skalinder]

energizer 7.2v from oade into a segue interprise juice box.

What's the capacity of the battery?  Is it a li-ion battery?  Or if you don't know either of those questions...what's the Energizer model number?  Should be on the battery somewhere.

Problem could be due to any number of problems:  pulling double duty, battery may have gone bad, the JuiceBox or a cable may have a short, the battery may not provide sufficient voltage for the voltage regulator in the JuiceBox, etc.

[cmoorevt]

Also, are you using a compact flash card or a microdrive?  Microdrives will drain the internal REAL fast.  Compared to willndmb's experiences, I use a compact flash card and even with phantom power on(when running the AT853s) still get three hours out of the internal battery.  Not sure how long it would go w/o phantom. 

I'd also echo Brian's comments about plugging in the external supply from the beginning, even if the MT's internal is charged.  I forgot to charge the MT internal battery before taping one night, ran using the external supply and the MT turned off after a few hours, lending credence to the double duty theory.

I've been using one of the bixnet 4xAA external supplies which seem to be impossible to find these days, but you may want to try one of the 4xAA Energizer energi to go devices if you determine something is wrong with the juicebox and/or want a smaller external battery source.

http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=17258&hed=Energizer+to+Sell+Energi+To+Go

[KLowe]

https://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1561


I think this is the exact replacement battery.  Looks just like the one I pulled out of the MT.

Will try it and see what happens.

[Brian Skalinder]

I think this is the exact replacement battery.  Looks just like the one I pulled out of the MT.

Will try it and see what happens.

If it were me, I'd do some more testing to nail down whether the problem lies with the MT batt, the external batt, cables, JuiceBox, etc., before replacing any of those components.  But if you think the above will do the trick - good luck!  Let us know how it turns out.

[KLowe]

sound advice.  Gonna test everything tonight.
If we have to go down the battery changing road.. I'll let you know the results

thanks for all the help

Kevin

[KLowe]

the update.  All items measured with volt meter (sperry dm-5300).

voltage from battery - 10.32 (which is weird b/c it says only 7.2v on lable)

voltage from post juice box 4.96v

voltage from stock MT 2496 battery 4.12 v (about 1/3 charged)

++voltage required from 6gb hitachi microdrive++
Requirement    
+3.3VDC / +5VDC (±5%)
Current (write)    
230mA / 280mA
Current (standby)    
13mA / 15mA

++voltage for CF II card++  (chose sandisk for example)
Read     50 mA(3.3V) 55 mA (5V)     50 mA(3.3V) 55 mA (5V)
Write    65 mA(3.3V) 70 mA (5V)             65 mA(3.3V) 70 mA (5V)


So....there is the proof that the Microtrack's battery hates microdrives as far as mA usage.

But what I still dont get is that the external battery pack should supply a shit-ton of mA hours for this device and a microdrive.  I guess it comes backk to the double duty theory.  The microtrack keeps shutting off to charge mode b/c the charge required to charge the battery and run the microdrive is more than the 5v juicebox can push to it.

What do ya think about pushing 6v to it?  Think it would cause any damage?

anyway to figure out how much voltage is required to charge the MT's battery?

Still dont get why the damn MT will run just fine when plugged into an AC wall socket when the wall-wart AD/DC converter is rated as 5v   Time to stick the volt meter in the wal-wart thing to see if it really is 5v?

Any opinions or advice?

thanks in advance.

KEvin

[KLowe]

OK.  Figured it out.  Mr. Wizard would be proud of me.

Juice box is only flowing 213mA.  Microdrive is sucking the life out of the on board battery (which I suspect is past it's prime).  USB wall plug in works fine b/c it is supplying all the amperage that the units needs. 

Problem is available amperage not voltage.  My juice box is not suppying enough.   

and yes.... I know I have been replying to my own thread.  I made a C in physics 102 when they were explaining all of this voltage amperage crap.  Damn I new that would eventually come back and bite me in the ass.  Thank God for Wikipedia.

[Brian Skalinder]

Juice box is only flowing 213mA.  Microdrive is sucking the life out of the on board battery (which I suspect is past it's prime).  USB wall plug in works fine b/c it is supplying all the amperage that the units needs.

Interesting, but I don't think we can narrow it down to the JuiceBox just yet.  I believe Todd R's JuiceBox circuit is pretty simple, and I think the only component in it that might restrict the amperage is the voltage regulator.  I don't know which VR he's using, but I'd be surprised if the VR spec doesn't support far more than 213 mA.  My money's on the li-ion battery not being able to provide enough amperage, rather than the VR box.  To test this, you'll need a known-good battery - i.e. one that you know will provide the amperage the MT needs - to hook up to the JuiceBox for testing.  What amperage does the MT wallwart provide when the MT was recording -and- charging?

[KLowe]

same battery pushes a UA-5 just fine.

[Brian Skalinder]

same battery pushes a UA-5 just fine.

But the UA5 might only draw 213 mA of current, in which case the test with the UA5 hasn't proved anything other than the battery's capable of providing the same current to two different devices.  The UA5 specs list 450 mA if I recall correctly, but different usage and/or mics will result in different current draw.

Basically, we're trying to test two cases, both under field-simulated conditions (recording -and- charging the battery simultaneously):

<1>  Is the battery capable of providing the current the MT needs?
<2>  Is the JuiceBox capable of passing the current the MT needs

Once we complete <1>, we'll know whether we need to proceed with <2>.  In order to test <1>, we need to know:

A - How much current does the MT draw when in field-simulation mode (i.e. recording -and- charging) with the wallwart?
B - How much current does the UA5 draw when in operation in your test environment?

If the battery provides current to the UA5 comparable with what the MT requires from the wallwart, (i.e. B >= A), then it's reasonable (mostly) to suspect the JuiceBox is the bottleneck.  If the battery does not provide current to the UA5 comparable with what the MT requires from the wallwart (i.e. B <= A), then we're not yet in a position to suspect the JuiceBox is the bottleneck.

[guysonic]

MT AC adapter supplies up to 1 ampere if I remember correctly.  Problem with these 'juicebox' externals a lot of tapers are buying for cheap is they are inadequate for supplying the needed 350+ milliamperes needed to charge the internal MT battery, AND run the deck.  Add a power hungry microdrive that draws as much as the deck, and the external 'juicebox' goes flat within minutes.

In many past threads about using those cheap MT external battery solutions, I have given the technical details of why those 4 AA cell boxes just cannot give much additional time, AND if you are to get even a few extra hours over the MT battery, do NOT use a microdrive, and the internal MT battery MUST be fully charged BEFORE connecting these types of solutions.

If you really want something that powers, charges the MT battery, AND will run a microdrive for well over 10 hours, then my company has these available, but they are NOT cheap.  But neither is the price of tickets to a lot of today's venues, so maybe it's worth the cost of a suitably engineered external battery solution so as NOT to be disappointed with your deck running out of power before the show ends.

Bottom line is it is NOT the fault of the deck having insufficient power designed into it (remember these are cheap decks of smallest size possible), it's the users choice of memory, battery maintenance, and choice in auxiliary battery accessory that is questionable.

[Brian Skalinder]

Problem with these 'juicebox' externals a lot of tapers are buying for cheap is they are inadequate for supplying the needed 350+ milliamperes needed to charge the internal MT battery, AND run the deck.  Add a power hungry microdrive that draws as much as the deck, and the external 'juicebox' goes flat within minutes.

Thanks for the info, Guy.  In this case, though, we're talking about what should be a fairly robust external battery solution.  The JuiceBox is merely a voltage regulator and isn't providing any power directly, simply passing it along.  And the external battery is a sizeable 4500 or 5400 mAH li-ion battery capable of passing the required current even for microdrive + operating MT + battery charging.  (I think, haven't gotten confirmation on KLowe of the model # yet.)  No doubt the AA-based external battery solutions suffer when pulling double or triple duty with two or more of microdrive + MT + charging.

[guysonic]

Problem with these 'juicebox' externals a lot of tapers are buying for cheap is they are inadequate for supplying the needed 350+ milliamperes needed to charge the internal MT battery, AND run the deck.  Add a power hungry microdrive that draws as much as the deck, and the external 'juicebox' goes flat within minutes.

Thanks for the info, Guy.  In this case, though, we're talking about what should be a fairly robust external battery solution.  The JuiceBox is merely a voltage regulator and isn't providing any power directly, simply passing it along.  And the external battery is a sizable 4500 or 5400 mAH li-ion battery capable of passing the required current even for microdrive + operating MT + battery charging.  (I think, haven't gotten confirmation on KLowe of the model # yet.)  No doubt the AA-based external battery solutions suffer when pulling double or triple duty with two or more of microdrive + MT + charging.

Thank you for the correction and detail about the Juice Box's function.  Did a search and seems this is no longer available, and no specification on 5 volt regulated current output found.  Seems likely to be too current limited for some applications as discussed here.

Maybe an updated version with 1 ampere output ability and USB cable for demanding MT deck applications is in order?



---WARNING!!! -  start of why 'this guy' will never sell a 'juice box' product----

My business model is more geared to professional recordists who make a living using this type of equipment. 

They mostly technically know no more than 'amateurs' about the equipment they're using, but depend on the gear NOT failing to meet their requirements for reliable operation while doing a project.   For that reason I work to provide designed 'recording systems' of configured mic+preamps, and auxiliary deck power that will not disappoint with shortcomings.

For this reason, I hesitate to supply a partial deck powering solution like a juice box that leaves it up to the user to choose a source of battery power and unspecified compatibility with various deck configurations.   Leaves the choice of battery, cable, connectors, and operating conditions too unspecified, and this will cause some users unexpected grief when they can least afford it.

There is also good reason I avoid using rechargeable batteries for high-reliability systems. Secondary batteries have limited/variable working life/capacity (typically <2 years 80% capacity service life for NiMH/lithium).  Rechargeable battery running times can vary too much.  Capacity of secondary cells depends on user's being knowledgeable about best storage conditions and proper charger/charging practices to best maintain cell capacity/service life.  Knowing when and how to recharge a particular battery type and storage under what charge condition for extending cell service life is important if secondary cells are to be the least reliable.  I feel this is asking for trouble for most recordists to effectively deal with, and the fact that most are recording 'once in a lifetime' events begs the question of how much risk of avoidable equipment failure is acceptable.

So instead I choose most reliable primary lithium and alkaline batteries to run my gear offerings.  This is also the reason why my battery solutions are costly as everything possible is engineered NOT to fail in the field, and continue to work for at least 10 years of rough field service.

While there are many low cost 'kludge-it-together-yourself' external battery configurations that do work just fine, or work OK most of the time, I have no desire to make these 'partial' products, and then have to turn my back on customer's disappointment for something NOT working as expected by their own doing. 

For me it's better to produce highly engineered completely configured gear, having customers be able to use these for intended purposes without failures or disappointments for far more than a few short years, and charge what it costs to produce uniquely reliable recording solutions. 

I'm sure 'my philosophy' is not to every one's taste, where choosing cheapest is bestest. 

This seems the way most purchase everything these days, on price alone that is. 

Guy's with my business philosophy seem an endangered species with today's buying EVERYTHING BY PRICE ALONE attitudes.  And I get a lot of hard knocks by tapers who ONLY consider price and NOTHING ELSE.  And sure, with commodity products, ONLY difference is the price it seems, unless having a dislike for the 'lowest-price-in-town' outlet's management or something like that. 

I'm not immune to the 'lowest price without value consideration' syndrome for commodity purchases, and I love to shop around, but I also make a real effort to consider build quality and thoughtful design as maybe more important over price for some things.

 

[KLowe]

Brian,

"ER-DVD 7.2v 4500mAh" is the battery.  Did a few other tests.  It has to be the juice box.  I'm not sure why it would be impeding amp flow..but it is.
Thank you both for the discussion.  I have learned a ton from yall and wikipedia.

Needless to say.  The juice box is in the garbage.  Dont know if I got a "bad one" or what.  I bought it in the YS and can't even remember who from..but it doesn't matter.  I'm just glad I found the problem and now kindof understand amperage. 

Thanks again.

Got my eye on a few 5v USB external batteries with 1.2mA output.


Kevin

[Brian Skalinder]

"ER-DVD 7.2v 4500mAh" is the battery.  Did a few other tests.  It has to be the juice box.  I'm not sure why it would be impeding amp flow..but it is.

If you say so.  My bet's still that the JuiceBox is okay.  I'm not convinced you've tested and narrowed it down properly to the JuiceBox based on what I've read in this thread, but...it's your gear to do with as you wish. 

Needless to say.  The juice box is in the garbage.  Dont know if I got a "bad one" or what.  I bought it in the YS and can't even remember who from..but it doesn't matter.  I'm just glad I found the problem and now kindof understand amperage.

Why not PM Todd R and ask him about the JuiceBox and your problems?  Could be an easy fix, maybe it's covered under warranty, perhaps he can provide direction about how to further troubleshoot, etc.  I used a JuiceBox with my MT and V3 and a similar battery just fine for quite a while - even if the culprit is the JuiceBox, I doubt the problem's something in the original design since I and many others have used the JB just fine in this application.  At the very least, seems kinda silly to just pitch it - I bet someone in the Yard Sale would even take it off your hands for a few bucks.

[dallman]

Just to throw in my 2 cents, for most of the life of my MT (and I have one of the first to roll off the production line), I have used a 5gb microdrive (seagate). I thought the internal battery was borderline defective, because I never got near the amount of time that everyone else got.

Early on, I got an external battery box (4 AA batteries 5v output) that plugged directly into the mini usb jack. That totally solved the problem, I could go for hours, and although I carried a fresh set of AA batteries, I never ran out of juice. I always used regular alkaline batteries, not rechargable ones as they do not have enough power.  No festival use per se, but a few outdoor fairs with multiple shows, and never a problem. To me it always appeared that the external battery was charging the internal battery and the internal battery was supplying the power to run the unit. This was not scientific, but what I believe was happening based on the MT battery icon and power remaining after I was done recording.

I have used the MT in every configuration available, but usually recorded 16/44.1 s/pdif, or mics>battery box>MT. I added a 2gb Kingston card, but it somehow ended up in my Canon Camera, so I never really used it.

Recently I added a Kingston 4gb CF, and the battery run time is more than double what I was getting with the microdrive. Big  big noticable difference from microdrive. I recorded Bob Dylan and the Foo Fighters and still had almost half power showing, and this was without the external battery connected.

I stuck with the Microdive because it was rock solid. I would hear story upon story of MT>CF compatability issues, so I just kept using the microdrive.

With the latest firmware upgrade, and even before that with the right CF card, using a microdrive is a big mistake. If power is an issue and runtime, then using a microdrive is the wrong option. The latest firmware seems to have made the MT work well with a much larger amount of CF cards.

With the plusses of CF over Microdrive, I probably would only use a microdrive in a non critical storage capacity. There is no longer a good reason to use it during a critical transfer operation like recording a show.

Keep us posted, but also consider my experience, and look toward a reliable CF card. 

[KLowe]

Problem solved.  I can safely say that the MT is NOT a POS as a bit bucket.  It was the juice box causing all the issues.  Simple fix.  went to rat shack and bought a 7805 resistor and installed it "in line" from the 9v battery to the MT.  Works like a charm.  tested for four hours and .... its all good.  Gets a little hot but nothing painful.

$1.68 solves the problem.

MT in the house!! (as a bit bucket)