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Gear / Technical Help => Photo / Video Recording => Topic started by: Teen Wolf Blitzer on December 23, 2010, 12:28:10 PM
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Not sure if all HD cams have these but my Canon HV30 does. I've been shooting the standard HD at 60i. Manual focus always. Not sure if I should try out shutter priority (tv) or Cinemode. I don't want blur and I've read fast motion can cause that with the other modes. I just want the footage crisper. Thoughts? Is it gain that is making it seem a bit blurry? Lightning seemed great in the room. ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaEBfL2YFO0
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I always shoot 24 progressive. Well, no, I shoot 25 progressive because I'm in Europe, but 24p is your equivalent. PF24.
And always in Cinemode.
I do this for various reasons. One, because it allows the shutter to open up to 1/24 (or 1/25) where needed to compensate for crappy lighting. Although - this seems to be the opposite of what you want. Obviously, longer shutter times = more motion blur. But I find that the advantage of an added stop of light when you need it far outweighs less motion blur if the less motion blur version is underexposed (or overly noisy because more gain is added to compensate).
Cinemode limits the gain to around +6dB or +9dB ish maximum - any more than that and it looks like utter shite. It also does less internal processing and fiddling about with the colours and contrast - more natural colours and wider dynamic range. Although, it means you can't set shutter- or apeture- priority mode - you can only set the overall exposure manually.
Also, quite simply, interlacing is archaic. I heartily believe it's a stupid concept, and I long for the days when it's relegated to nothing more than quaint little museums and History of Video texbooks. The de-interlacing done by most NLE software is often pretty poor. I always run interlaced footage through a Avisynth script with a tdeint() before any other processing. Poor de-interlacing algorithms will definitely blur the image. The only time I would ever voluntarily shoot interlaced is if I wanted to do some on-the-cheap slow-mo.
So basically 24p mode just means the shutter can open longer leading to better exposure but more motion blur, and Cine mode means you can't manually force the shutter to stay above a certain level.
If you want to minimise motion blur, you're gonna want to keep the shutter open as small a time as possible. You can put it into 24p but in shutter-priority to control it. But this way you get none of the advantages of Cine mode - dynamic range, colours, gain, etc. Or, I think, you can put it into 60i but in Cine - this way you can't control the shutter but you can be sure it won't go below 1/60. This way you get the advantages of Cine mode, but also all the disadvantages of Interlacing.
Certainly, you do not want to be limiting the shutter speed to anything less than the 1/60 limit imposed by the 60i mode you're currently in. Not in indoor concert enviroments.
But to be perfectly honest - I see nothing wrong with your sample. It's obviously hard to tell with the YouTube compression, but it looks sharp and bright enough to me. Can you post a full size jpg screenshot taken from the original M2T file? At the end of the day, for a tiny hand-hold-able camcorder in a little club with cheap lighting, there's gonna be a ceiling. I have a feeling you're at it already. I certainly cannot see any motion blur - at least, not any objectionable motion blur. No motion blur at all would look weird. Put it this way - most feature films are shot at 24p with a shutter of 1/48 (where they can control the lighting enough). I can't imagine you look at them an complain they're blurry. If there is Blur in your sample - it probably is due to noise. If there's that much noise, it's because the gain is very high. If the gain is that high, you'd do better to have the shutter at 1/24 so that the cam is able to expose to the same level without jacking up the gain. The added motion blur would look less objectionable than the noise.
Hence, I always shoot 25p/24p in Cine mode. I'd try it at least once, see what you thing. Manual Exposure too. Turn on Zebras at 100%. They will help with exposure setting. Bear in mind, on my HV20, the Zebras are maybe one or two 'manual exposure steps' optimistic - they zebra out when it's not quite clipped yet.
Just IMO, of course.
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Many thanks for the reply. What are your thoughts on 30 instead of 24? I'm not sure I'm ready for the whole pulldown post processing stuff. :help: And are you familiar with the Gain (Exposure Lock with Photo Button Trick) ? ie. locking the exposure at 1.8 1/48
My only worry is a show like this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH9VnmVsF3Y&p=389423AF11B36484
It would seem it would be unviewable if shot in cinemode? It's already so dark.
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Oh, does the pulldown thing still apply for 24p in the HV30? I remember reading about it on the HV20 when it came out, but we don't have that problem with the PAL models so I've not kept track of any changes. If it is still all wrapped up in a weird container framerate and you don't want to bother with it, shooting straight 30p would be good enough.
I've heard about the exposure locking trick, but never tried it. Can you lock in all 3 to whatever settings you like? I think it works in combination with Cine mode, right? In which case that would probably be a decent idea/combination. Though I still think shutter down to 1/24 or 1/30 (depending on framerate used) is something to consider when the light gets really bad.
Hm, yeah, for something like that you'd probably want more gain. Although still leave it in progressive mode - that is a golden example of where as much light as possible is the most important thing. I guarantee that situation will look better overall at 1/30 than 1/60. Especially tripodded. If I was shooting that I'd probably leave it in progressive mode, but take it out of Cine and into shutter priority. Shutter at 1/30 or 1/24, then manually bump up the exp (opening Apeture & adding gain) as much as I dared before the gain got too high. But not too much. Max gain is, IMO, worse than having it underexposed but less noisy.
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What is end product?If bluray than 60i or real 24p is the only choice 30p is only a web format it is not in the DVD or Bluray spec.I shoot at 60i always i dont care for the 24p look maybe 60p. As stated never leave the gain maxed out back off 4 or 6 steps.My sony fx1000 has gain up to 24db but i never go above 9db because the image is garbage.
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What is end product?If bluray than 60i or real 24p is the only choice 30p is only a web format it is not in the DVD or Bluray spec.I shoot at 60i always i dont care for the 24p look maybe 60p. As stated never leave the gain maxed out back off 4 or 6 steps.My sony fx1000 has gain up to 24db but i never go above 9db because the image is garbage.
Did not know this. Or, more accurately, had forgotten it was not part of DVD Spec, but assumed it was part of Blu-Ray spec.
Although on further research 25p isn't part of the DVD Spec either - but I put 25p footage on DVDs all the time. I'm pretty sure the MPEG-2 DVD encoder simply duplicates each progressive frame and then throws away half the lines from each. This way the stream is technically 50i, even though 2 consecutive fields contain information from only one temporal moment. I think the stream's header flags are then set to progressive, so the DVD player knows to just straight combine consecutive fields together on playback. Right?
In which case, wouldn't a similar trick be posible to put 30p onto Blu-Ray disguised as 60i?
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@Mark- Hard to say exactly without having the original .m2t here,but I'd have to say it's the focus thats a bit off.You mention manual focus but how are you going about it exactly?Another way is to zoom to your subject and switch to AUTO focus to get that sharp focus and switch back to Manual to lock it.But of course you need to do that for every composition.
Both videos look alright to me...the second one is just a matter of minimal lighting.When the singer steps into to that hard direct light he's a bit overexposed on his forearm and neck so i think its an accurate representation of what was lit.The only way to get a better lit scene is to have more lights and talk to the light guy ahead of time.Ask him to bring up the white light(the ones with no gels).Or at least put a spot on the frontmans mic area.Really nothing can be done other than more(better lighting)for those situations.Talk to the light guy( i assume you alraedy talk to the sound guy.)
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in low light situations I shoot at 60i tv mode shutter at 1/30 (HV20)
with your christmas show footage i dont see an issue.
make sure your lens is clean, that is a good way to cause blur
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nice footage Mark!
my new cam does 60p but it aparently is not compatible with iMovie '09
I'm not sure it is they way to go for me- at least with non music vids
so far I'm impressed with the Panasonic HDC-SDC600P
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The suitable one for me 60i tv mode...got some great footage.
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Used LUMIX FZ100 for 1080i videos; camera specs in previewed here: http://www.dpreview.com/news/1007/10072108panasonicdmcfz100.asp
Shot the moon at 32x 1080i 30fps using setting stated in opening credits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S9FbKesQ9M
Very low lit acoustic guitar duet performance, and this 1/2.3" CMOS sensor has disadvantages, for better or worse used the IAuto auto mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k49lNgTBy8
Optimum lighting inside greenhouse on cloudy day Vet's Day; no memory of settings but likely IA again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6-FyO-thJo
And Vet's Day was first use of my DIY all-in-one telescopic monopod mounted rig pictured below, but pole then needed horizontal stabilizing 'bicycle grip' bar attached giving better chance of steady image while moving about.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/VetDay261.jpg)
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Great material Mark, very nice job.
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I'd have a similar question. I bought Canon Legria Hf S20
Somebody recommended to me Cine mode. I have used only for one rock show. Picture is awesome!, but somtimes focus lost during zoom, when light changes wasnt even heavy...
Else recommended auto mode, so the cam follow the change of lights fast.
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I normally run PF24, but I tried straight 24F last night. Gives it a more cinematic look but there is more blur.
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1080/60p
I use a panasonic hdc-sd600 for this. Great cam!