Topic: Stage Miking

[Walstib62]

Our local band of merry tapers has a great opportunity. We have a new venue opening soon, and the owner is allowing us to set up anywhere we want to, including onstage.
We are thinking of permanently mounting a rig from the ceiling that will allow us to hang mics over the stage.
My question is: has anyone here done this, or anyone have any suggestions? Any info. will be greatly appreciated!

[hoppedup]

A little more background:

This is an old textile mill building, with relatively low ceilings ~10'. Where the stage is there are new steel posts and I-beams that had to be added to bring the room up to code. There are posts every 16 feet and I-beams running perpendicular to the front of the stage every 8 feet.

Walstib62's idea is to hang unistrut from the beams with beam clamps. Then we can use spring nuts to have down rods that can be moved to create different separations and mic locations. I say we run one (or more)  from beam to beam. The beam clamps will allow the unistrut to be moved perpendicular to the stage and the spring nuts will allow movement parallel to the stage. We can also put one up FOB for taping as well. The I-beams will allow easy cable runs. There is a post near what I think will be the sweet spot FOB with an AC outlet in the floor nearby.

I think the unistrut/spring nut idea gives flexibility for many tapers to use the set-up. I think a mixture of 1/4-20 and 3/8-16 rod would be good. If each had nuts and washers as well, that would give lots of possibilities. Maybe rig up some 5/8-27 stuff as well?

[baustin]

Our local band of merry tapers has a great opportunity. We have a new venue opening soon, and the owner is allowing us to set up anywhere we want to, including onstage.
We are thinking of permanently mounting a rig from the ceiling that will allow us to hang mics over the stage.
My question is: has anyone here done this, or anyone have any suggestions? Any info. will be greatly appreciated!

how many channels will you have the ability to record?

i've only run mics over the stage once with less than stellar results. my ideal taping situation right now is a 6 channel setup consisting of 2 mics onstage (preferably split omni's), 2 mics from the ceiling (preferably hypercards) about 10-15ft back from the stage (ie - the sweet spot) and 2 channels from the soundboard.

if you have the ability to mount something from the ceiling, i would permanently mount some type of bar in the sweet spot to which you can clamp and permanently mount cables running along the ceiling to a secure location where you'll have your deck. if you've got a handful of local tapers, ya'll may want to collaborate and run a couple sets of xlr's so ya'll aren't fighting for a single pair. basically you'll be setting your mics up in a location where it would be a hassle to setup and block on a given night.

as far as mounting above the stage, you have to take into consideration that, yes, it will be loud up there, but consider the musicians amps (guitar, bass, keys)... they face out towards the crowd.

the purpose of each set of 2 channels:
sbd - you get the clean crisp vocals, usually a decent mix of the band and a good bit of high end
onstage - nice image of how the stage is set up (ie - keys on the left, horns in the center, guitar/bass on the right, etc), nice low end from bass and guitar, any drums that might not be mic'd, any instrument that the band might pick up and play that isn't mic'd, onstage banter from the band
ceiling - nice ambient image of the room, crowd, sweet spot recording of the PA

one of my favorites using this technique: http://www.archive.org/details/tish2009-06-25.6_channel_matrix.flacf16

good luck!

[stevetoney]

I don't know.  My initial thoughts is not to go overboard with rigging something up for permanent installation. 

Biggest reason is, since you free reign why limit yourself to hanging mics.  What if the best sound isn't at the ceiling?  For example, most venue's I know point the PA somewhat downward, although it sounds like there's low cielings at this place so perhaps this isn't an issue. 

I'd think the better scenario would be that, since you have free reign, accept that as an open ticket to be able to figure out each night what is the best taping scenario possible...with no limitations.  Having easy access to the venue, the SBD, etc to figure out what will be the best situation for every show. 

For example, if you have multiple tapers with only two channels, then put one on the SBD feed, one FOB and one at the stage lip.  Then put together a matrix in post.

Here's a real-life example.  In the last month, I saw Garaj Mahal and Soulive at a VERY taper friendly venue here in Pittsburgh.  I thought PERFECT, I'll do both of these bands MS from the stage lip and it will sound absolutely perfect. 

Both shows sound good, but there are things I'd definitely change on both nights.  For example, the vocals for Garaj just aren't prominent enough, so I'd either move the mics back a little to get some vocal out of the PA or mix in a SBD feed to get the vocals in there. 

OK, so I had it figured out for Soulive right because they had no vocals.  PERFECT for stage lip right?  WRONG!  Turns out that Soulive moved the drums up to the lip of the stage.  So for this recording, the drums are just too prominent in the left channel of my mix. 

The point is that that every recording situation provides a different challenge if you're gonna get the perfect recording.  There are subtle things about every show, starting with placement of the sound sources, that makes every show a different challenge in getting the perfect recording.  Keeping the maximum flexibility better ensures you'll be able to get the perfect recording.

So, I'd personally consider the open invitation more an opportunity to have free reign than an opportunity to rig something up permanent on the ceiling.

PS:  If you do decide to hang mics, I wouldn't hang them OVER the stage, especially with 10 foot ceilings.  You'd never get good balance on those recordings because someone in the band is always gonna be closer to the mics than other band members.  Also, speakers are projecting out, not up...not to mention that you'd be BEHIND the PA speakers there.  The only scenario I can see where 10 feet above the stage would be OK is a completely acoustic show with a pair of split omni's hanging.  Put the mics out in front of the stage. 

[Walstib62]

I can do a total of 2-4channel recordings (8 channels total).
Jon, thanks for the heads up on the comb filtering. I thought about some type of acoustic baffle, but that will likely not happen on the maiden voyage. I do have a pair of Realistic PZM's I could try on the ceiling. 
When miking from the stage, what is a good placement to start with, mostly from a height standpoint? We have CA-14 omni's available, which we could mount just about anywhere since they are so small.

[baustin]

obviously there are variables to our individual situations and need to be taken into consideration when mounting a "permanent" clamping pole...

in our situation, we listened for a while and found what we considered to be the sweet spot, then mounted a "permanent" pole (its not welded on, it can move at any time).

we have our FOB, DFC pole hanging down a few feet from the ceiling (and a few feet above head level) in the sweet spot of our favorite venue. that being said, CD will routinely run mics from the ceiling with varied results.

same goes for onstage... you need to look at what instruments will be onstage, their locations, how loud individual instruments will be, onstage monitors, etc. DFC onstage doesn't necessarily mean the best spot. when it comes to onstage it definitely needs to be a game time decision. i also wouldn't hesitate to try and pull sound (vocals) out of the onstage monitors.

[baustin]

I can do a total of 2-4channel recordings (8 channels total).
Jon, thanks for the heads up on the comb filtering. I thought about some type of acoustic baffle, but that will likely not happen on the maiden voyage. I do have a pair of Realistic PZM's I could try on the ceiling. 
When miking from the stage, what is a good placement to start with, mostly from a height standpoint? We have CA-14 omni's available, which we could mount just about anywhere since they are so small.

i usually do split mics onstage with these exact mic stands: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Musician-s-Gear-Low-Profile-Tripod-Base-Mic-Stand-767137-i1323838.gc


wow!!! $30 off by the way!

[hoppedup]

i usually do split mics onstage with these exact mic stands: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Musician-s-Gear-Low-Profile-Tripod-Base-Mic-Stand-767137-i1323838.gc


wow!!! $30 off by the way!

  I like this approach. The stage is huge and should allow plenty of room for this. We also have an owner who is willing to put up a barricade to create an OTS in the sweet spot. The bar area will be far away from the stage and any tapers. So if this place sounds good, it will be a perfect venue for tapers. My thought is to hold off on any type of mounted solution until after the first show. Board patches will always be given unless the band wishes otherwise.

Thanks for the replies.

[chrisdavis]

onstage stands purchased.  thanks for the link sensai!

[hoppedup]

onstage stands purchased.  thanks for the link sensai!

x2

[Walstib62]

I agree with you Hopster-I think it's possible that our best bet is to close mic the PA mixed with the board. Should be awesome. I can't wait!

[hoppedup]

The stage is probably a foot tall. It is 32 feet wide and about 14 feet deep. Yes, there is a post in the middle of the stage sight line about two feet away from the stage. I think most bands will be able to set up to one side. A structural engineer confirmed the post could come out, but the place will need to turn a nice profit for quite some time before that becomes financially feasible.

The room is huge. Capacity is 1185, but as the owner put it, "Half of those people could be hula-hooping." Of course, the capacity is linked to egress issues, not room size.

[ArchivalAudio]

The stage is probably a foot tall. It is 32 feet wide and about 14 feet deep. Yes, there is a post in the middle of the stage sight line about two feet away from the stage. I think most bands will be able to set up to one side.

if the bands set up in the middle of the stage... or to one side
you might just clamp to this beam 2 feet from the stage up higher than the crowd and run ORTF or DINa

and potentially get a great recording... depending on the band and their  VOX or lack of them

or angle it to one side or the other, you just might catch enough of the PA from there depending on how wide of a dispersion the horns are in the PA or where it is and aimed


--Ian

[Walstib62]

Thanks to all for your responses. This has been a great "thinking out loud" forum for us. It's really been helpful. The first band we are taping in this new venue is Donna The Buffalo. We all know the keyboard player fairly well, and they are very taper friendly. Since they don't play loud, hard rock, the onstage sound should be very good.
To my knowledge, they don't use IEM, but I could be wrong there. I think that if we can concentrate our efforts on getting a good onstage feed from a pair of omni's, combined with a good direct PA miking, and a board feed, we should be able to pull a very good recording.

Now to get a good video cam......

[SmokinJoe]

We have one local venue, smaller than yours, with a low ceiling, and basically there are 2 options to tape... about 20' out, or on stage.  If you go 20' it's pretty much in the sweet spot, but you get some chatter, and basically you are doing the standard PA tape.  On stage will tend to get low vocals.

There is a light bar over head stage lip, and I have clamped to that about 3 times.  In all cases, it sounded good, with great separation, but the vocals are still low.  Not as low as having a stand stage lip 2' off the ground, but lower than ideal.  I think the mics are getting some sound from the PA.

http://www.archive.org/details/nwg2009-08-12.akg414.flac16f

[Walstib62]

Thanks for the info. and the link Joe. It was my impression that stage miking would produce great instrument sound, depending on placement, but possibly weak in the vocals. This and other tapes seem to confirm that.
Hopefully, with a Mix of PA, SBD and stage sources, we will get a nice blend.
It's certainly trial and error, I just want to minimize the error part ahead of time if possible.

[hoppedup]

I'm thinking that maybe hanging something for mounts would be good for static cams for those doing video.

I don't run video yet, but it's in my plans for the future.

[stevetoney]

^ FWIW, I'm pretty sure Donna the Buffalo is video friendly.  That's a HELLA band for the cherry poppin' gig!  One of my favorites. 

Yeah, vocals are problemmatic for any close-to- stage mic'ing situation.  I'd consider either getting the vocals off the SBD and matrix them in after the show, or you could run a separate rig and hang mics in front of the vocal monitor, as long as the vocal monitor has all of the band's vocals routed through it.  I think Tara and Jeb are the only vocalists in this incarnation of the band, although Kathy sang back when she was in the band.

[mosquito]

DTB for the first show?  Lovely!

They do allow video (with certain caveats and addenda): http://www.archive.org/details/DonnatheBuffalo

Some thoughts:

It sounds like the hall is huge horizontally.  Has the owner considered making the stage even wider?  12 - 16 feet wide to one side of the pole might be a little narrow for a lot of bands and I imagine extending a one foot tall stage would be a lot easier and cheaper than removing the post.

Has anyone considered building hard flats to tailor the sound of the hall?  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flats_(theatre) )  I'm kinda expecting -- in my wild imagination -- that it's going to have some reverberation that's going to make it sound muddy.  If it were done it would probably be safest to hang them from the ceiling.  They're not hard to build at all, but the cost of lumber can add up.  As a bonus, they could be used for projected lights.

Have you considered bringing in a small local band for an afternoon or evening some time before opening night?  It would probably be useful for the house to do a run-through as if there were a real show so that they've had live music run through the system at least once and to help figure out whatever setup / take down / storage procedures.  The main reason I thought of this is that if you / they did it, you'd have a good chance to put a pair of mics on a stand and carry it around to find the real sweet spots to help in your decision making.

GL.  Let us know how it goes!

[hoppedup]

The owner is going to do some limited sound baffling work prior to the first show. DtB is actually the second night this place is open. There are a couple of local bands there the night before. I plan to go to that show to scope the scene. I've taped one of the bands before, so it shouldn't be a problem.

With the coverage we have for DtB (I can run 6 channels, Walstib62 can do 8, I assume capnhook will be there running at least 4) we'll get something good.

[stevetoney]

DTB for the first show?  Lovely!

BTW, for the youngun's in the crowd, DtB (donna the buffalo) existed LOOONG before DTB (derek trucks band). 

I like Derek Trucks Band, but it bugged me a little bit that their fans never seemed to respect that the DTB acronym had already been in use for many years before the derek band.

[Walstib62]

True,
Donna was on the scene first, but I have a tape of Derek Trucks band from '93. Granted, not the current lineup.
That's only 5 yrs. after Donna formed, I believe.

[rocksuitcase]

Here's what we did when we had the run of club daDa in Dallas back in the Late 80's.

We got the house sound man to run us two channels of cables from the stage snakebox and then took XLR cables from the back of their board straight to a small board that had XLR receptacles and was near the front of the board structure that had a ledge etc. We would then plug our decks into that board straight to the mic ins.We transformed that location into the tapers area on nights when we taped.

Occasionally, for acoustic or no vocal bands, we also would run PZM's on stage. You have to watch out for foot noise, but those tracks often came out good.

Another thing you will find out is how the sound system is going to interact in the room. Especially with different sized audiences and band scenarios. You will note where the sound is the sweetest and then you should be able to figure out ceiling spots or stand clamping areas. Someone upthread mentioned stage monitors and their mix affecting what you will be taping from onstage mic locations. this is very crucial. You often have to note the location of the monitors and try not to get omnis or pzms too close or directly in front.

It sounds like a fun opportunity for you guys. Good luck with it!

[Walstib62]

Some kind of a break out box from the board would be great. How did that setup work? I'd think that it would have to have an amplifier in it to avoid signal loss.

[hoppedup]

 I put my SP-CMC-4U on stage with a DR-07 for Donna Saturday night. There was a big crowd up front so I set it down, pressed record and walked away. I guessed at the levels, thinking I was leaving lots of room. It was a little hot, but I was very pleased with the result.

Pics in the rig pictures forum:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129839.0

Walstib62, you never commented on the stage mics tape. What do you think?

[Walstib62]

They sound great for the instruments. I think if you put your omni's down next time, it would be even better!
Hopefully the SBD came out ok to mix with. My aud is so-so. I will get closer to the PA next time around. I told Frankie he should book Gov't Mule. That would be sweet.

[hoppedup]

I think if you put your omni's down next time, it would be even better!

Actually, I'll come up with a DIY mount and run the cards and split omnis next time, for comparison.

Thanks to baustin for the link to the short stands. I got two. Maybe I should have grabbed one more. With the mount I used, mics were around 22" from the stage floor.

With the number of channels we are capable of recording, maybe we can grab just the vox from the board at a show to mix back in. Lots of options to play around with. There are a few pictures on the Aquarius site now:  http://www.theaquariusmusichall.com/