Topic: mk41 vs mk4 ( ccm41 or ccm4) pickup

[bluntforcetrauma]

hello hope all is well.  I have looked at the polar patterns of each.  I am wondering from those with real world experience since they are expensive, does the ccm41 pick up rear noise, i see a 10db pick up from the back,  has anyone experienced noise pickup from the back, and along with that the Mk4 dont seem to pickup noise from behind. They may pick up more of an angle from the sides but with so much coin at stake i dont want to worry about people behind me yelling, if the cardoid mk4 does not pick it up wouldnt that be worth it or does the mk41 pick up so slight.

help

please

[Brian Skalinder]

FWIW, I always found the better off-axis rejection of the MK41 more beneficial than any negatives due to additional pickup from the small rear lobe (which I only ever noticed on rare occasions).

Another way to think about it:  if the tighter off-axis pattern will benefit the recording, it will benefit the whole recording, start to finish.  Even if the rear lobe picks up someone yelling behind you, they  probably won't be yelling through the entire recording...typically just a point in time (or perhaps several points in time, in a really unpleasant environment).  I'd rather have an overall better recording with a couple minor irritants than an irritant-free recording that doesn't sound as good.  (Of course, this all assumes the recording will sound better due to the use of the tighter pattern.)

[su6oxone]

Re: the pickup patterns and noise, I had that concern as well, and I've found that the 41s don't cut down crowd noise as much as I'd hoped compared to the 4s (and it does not pick up more crowd noise IME), but the sonic quality of the tape is definitely 'tighter' like Brian mentions, and this does make it sound different and/or better in certain recording conditions. 

Anyway, I am planning on doing some comparisons between the CCM4 and CCM41 next week with both in DINa, inches apart (vertically) on a stand, but going into different recorders (702 and 661) and post both sources on LMA, so stay tuned if interested...

[sparkey]

I love the tapes I make with my 41's....back of the room, front of the room, where ever.  The hypers, to my ear, reject lots of crowd noise and the rear lobe is negligible.

I spent years making great tapes down on the front drink rail with cards...now I make great tapes from the rear of the room with hypers, which involves a lot less work.

[bluntforcetrauma]

all great comments this really is helping. I really appreciate it

[Scooter123]

I borrowed some 41's and found the sound was not as rich (warm) as the mk4's, and due to the types of venues I go to (smallish) and the seats I try to get (DFC or FOB), the mk4's work better for me.  I wouldn't waste my money on them. 

[yug du nord]

The 41's can save a recording in some situations.  If you ever get caught in a crazy "chatty" room, or in an unlikely spot to record from....  the 41's can make a bad situation sound much better.
The 4's are great in proper situations.  And other caps are probably better than the 41's in certain situations......  but, 41's are great for spot miking, up close situations, or even from the back of the room too........  best all-around capsules IMO. 
If you're recording environment is "set", then the 4's might be best.
If you're recording environment is "improvised", then the 41's might be best.  IMO
Golden either way in my book.

And I agree with sparkey....  the rear lobe of the 41's isn't anything to worry about. 

[acidjack]

I do not consider myself to be a Schoeps junkie/fanboy like some people on this board have been rumored to be  , and I don't intend to swap my DPA 4021s for Mk4s anytime soon. 

That said, since I have owned my mk41s, I find myself using them more and more.  I record in small-to-medium (200-800) clubs mostly, and I find the hypers really cut down on room reflections. Also, just in general, the mk41s sound great--excellent bass response, crisp highs, and none of that nasty tinny-ness that hypers can have.  In fact, I still find that even the mk41 can pick up a bit more bass than I like from time to time.  Mk4s are a tad too warm/bassy/muddy for my typical uses IMHO, not that I haven't heard many truly outstanding recordings with them.

As Scooter notes, it depends what your primary taping methods are.  If you like to be way up front, then cardiods are your better bet.  When I do onstage or very near-field recordings I go to my 4021s or even 4061s, and obviously the mk4 is an excellent cap under those conditions also. 

I generally try to not be in the way of the audience, which puts me at the back of the room or on a balcony.  From those positions, I find more often than not that the mk41 is the way to go.

[stevetoney]

The only thing I'd add is that overall soundwise I give the nod to the MK4's because I think they sound better than the 41's.  But if your recording scenario's aren't very controlled, then go with 41's because they retain the character of the Schoeps line while increasing off-axis rejection.  If you think you'll have control of where you can setup your mics most of the time, I'd go with mk4's on the basis of their better sound and the fact that the 41's cost $200 a capsule more.  I wouldn't factor the rear lobe of the 41 into my concerns for reasons others have mentioned.

EDIT:  I no longer own 41's because a) I've discovered that I can't eliminate all crowd noise no matter where I record in a room and b) and I find that raising my stand a little more is quite effective for decreasing crowd noise.  Bottom line is that I just prefer to retain the warmth where others prefer to maximize off axis rejection.

EDIT 2:  Actually I kinda like Sparkey's suggestion in the following thread.  I'm even more partial to the sound of the wider cards than the regular cards.

[sparkey]

I used cards for a long time, and if I were to invest in another set of capsules it would be subcards rather than cards.  Cardoid pickup pattern is a bit of a bad compromise for many field situations - if I'm so close I like the sound of the cards, there is a good chance subcards may make a better tape.

[bluntforcetrauma]

thanks i tend to record in spots that are close to the sound source, stacks in big venues, I try for DFC FOB for smaller venues like (ruth eckerd hall 9 seat 2,000)


I truly like my DPA 4022 and 4061.  I have heard the schoeps give a different sound, and i was willing to dive into the schoeps arena, and since i have cards ( DPA 4022) i thought that the Mk41 I or ccm41) would be a nice change, but i dont see myself changing my recording positions at venues, i was wanting another set of mics. And i do use jedi taping skills the most.  In fact Like my DPA 4022 I customized my mic cable to only 1 meter--less cable to deal with.
again my main concerns was the rear pick up from behind me with the ccm41, and go lemo or hardwire mic cable.  they are not cheap.

thanks for all the advice it has been so very helpful ( again as you can see my OCD comes into effect when i think of rear pickup from the ccm41 with that kind of price tag.

and i am thinking of ccm41 version instead of capsules due to the extra gear i would have to lug around " if you know what i mean" if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps.  Not yet sold on the nbox, sorry

[su6oxone]

In fact Like my DPA 4022 I customized my mic cable to only 1 meter--less cable to deal with.

You can order custom length Lg cables from Schoeps for a reasonable price, about $200 (before the price drop this or last year).  I had a 1.25 meter cable made and it works great for stealthing. 

I also use the CCM41s fairly close (20 ft or less) at some local venues and they are good in those circumstances as well versus the 4s, cutting down on the boominess and helping to 'clarify' the sound.  After a few shows now the 41s have become my go-to, all-purpose mic, so if I'm running only one set of mics, I'm running the 41s.  But if I'm feeling up to the hassle, then I'll run both the 4s and the 41s to see which one I like better.

[sparkey]

if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps. 

You could also consider Neumann caps with the Lemosax (I think).

[page]

if i could get a lemosax then i would go caps. 

You could also consider Neumann caps with the Lemosax (I think).

While true, dont you have to do something with the pin-out or polarity to switch mic cap makers?

[johnw]

not to add more confusion, but the ccm4v and ccm41v caps have a lot to offer for stealth. that said, the 4v/41v caps do sound different from the 4/41 caps and while some people prefer that sound, others do not. if i had the money, i'd get the ccm4v and ccm41v before i got the non-vertical ones - especially if i was thinking of getting the lemo connection.