Topic: Neumann KM 140 opinions

[aysvideo]

I've been considering buying a pair of KM 140s.  These are the KM 100 bodies w/ the AK 40 cardiod capsules.  Currently, I use the Neuman KM 184s, which I like a lot, but I'm always looking to upgrade for the right price, and I like the fact that the 100s give me the option of using different capsules, if I decide to get more serious about this expensive hobby.  I primarily record small jazz ensembles (trios, quartets, etc.) , in small clubs and performance spaces, with the permission of the artists, so I'm placing the mics on stage, very close to the performers.  Can anyone advise me whether the sound of the 140s would be a significant step up from the 184s, or would I simply be purchasing the added convenience of being able to swap capsules when needed? 

Also, can someone tell me about the importance of having a matched pair, vs. 2 mics of the same model, which happened to have been purchased from different vendors?  If I buy them piecemeal, can they be matched by a technician at a later date?  Thanks much. 

[page]

I've been considering buying a pair of KM 140s.  These are the KM 100 bodies w/ the AK 40 cardiod capsules.  Currently, I use the Neuman KM 184s, which I like a lot, but I'm always looking to upgrade for the right price, and I like the fact that the 100s give me the option of using different capsules, if I decide to get more serious about this expensive hobby.  I primarily record small jazz ensembles (trios, quartets, etc.) , in small clubs and performance spaces, with the permission of the artists, so I'm placing the mics on stage, very close to the performers.  Can anyone advise me whether the sound of the 140s would be a significant step up from the 184s, or would I simply be purchasing the added convenience of being able to swap capsules when needed? 

Also, can someone tell me about the importance of having a matched pair, vs. 2 mics of the same model, which happened to have been purchased from different vendors?  If I buy them piecemeal, can they be matched by a technician at a later date?  Thanks much.

Some absolutely swear there is a slight audible difference, but Neumann officially states that the difference is the remote feature.

[John Willett]

I would also look at the new KM-A series.

The KM 100 series is very old.

Neumann's new detachable capsule series started with the KM-D digital series and now has 8 interchangeable heads.

Last year they introduced the KM-A analogue module - so the complete set of KK series capsules can be used with either module in an analogue or AES42 digital system.

KM-A / KM-D series:-

• KK 183  diffuse field omni
• KK 184  cardioid
• KK 185  super-cardioid
• KK 131  nearfield (flat) omni
• KK 133  diffuse field omni with ball
• KK 143  wide cardioid (sub-cardioid)
• KK 145  cardioid with bass roll-off
• KK 120   figure-8

Now Neumann have a new detachable capsule series, I would not like to invest in the old system, unless it is to add to an existing set-up.

Personally - I have a pair of the KM-D, a pair of KK 183 and a pair of the KK 131 capsules.

[johnw]

John,
Would the LC4 cable work with the KM A bodies and the KK series caps? According to the Neumann page it "connects with the KM D output stage" but no mention of the KM A.

[raymonda]

I would also look at the new KM-A series.

The KM 100 series is very old.

So what if it is old and actually it is not really that old, relatively speaking. Some would say that it is not old enough and that the KM84's were a better sounding mic. They certainly go for much more on the used market. Most of the mics I long for are old mics.

If you are looking for a modular design then you should pick up a pair of 140's and sell your 184's. As for sound difference, very little, if any. Both sound great and can capture a fantastic stereo recording! They also can be found for around a $1,000 a pair if you look and wait. However, if you want to wow the jazz crowd then drop some more cash on a really old mic, like the KM84's. Just make sure they are clean and in good operating condition. Most jazz artist covet this mic and will give you some props for having it.

BTW, I have some mics that are matched pairs and some that aren't. As long as the mic is from a quality manufacturer you can easly get away with a random pair. Just test them out before hand to ensure they are within spec.

[sparkey]

I've owned both 184's and 140's and I personally think the difference in sound between the two is the active cables with the 140's; other than that, they probably sound close to identical if you don't run the actives.  I'd also add that, for the kind of recording I do, I would go with a pair of hyper cards and a pair of sub cards....cardoid is a mediocre compromise between the two.

[John Willett]

John,
Would the LC4 cable work with the KM A bodies and the KK series caps? According to the Neumann page it "connects with the KM D output stage" but no mention of the KM

Yes - The KM-D and KM-A are exactly the same when it comes to the screw thread.

Neumann released the accessories before they released the KM-A and just haven't updated all the paperwork and websites.

[John Willett]

I've owned both 184's and 140's and I personally think the difference in sound between the two is the active cables with the 140's; other than that, they probably sound close to identical if you don't run the actives.  I'd also add that, for the kind of recording I do, I would go with a pair of hyper cards and a pair of sub cards....cardoid is a mediocre compromise between the two.

The KM100 series don't have active cables.

Only Schoeps have active cables.

Yes- the Neumann KM100 series have remote cables, but they are not active as far as I am aware.

The new KM-A / KM-D series also have remote cables - the difference being the screw connectors.

[taperj]

 This is a complex question and I'll try to answer it the best I can from my experiences. I'll start by saying I own both a skm184 and skm140 set. I too, got the 184's and made the "logical progression" to a more complex setup once I knew why I needed it. I too, loved my 184's and literally bought the same mics again when I got 140's, knowingly.
 Page is correct that the km184 and the km140 are the same microphone, the differences are the ability to switch capsules(ak50,ak20,etc,etc ) on the km100 bodies, the ability to run "actives"[they are actually passives but that's another story entirely] by running with the LC3 cables in between the body and the capsule for a smaller "in-air" footprint as well as a -10dB attenuator on the km100 body. You are in luck for a comparison of the 184's and the 140's as taperjoe and I set out to try to do a comparison of the two in a live environment a while back by running the exact same rigs other than the microphones which were my matched pairs of km140's and km184's. Here are the two sources:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=532775
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=532788

pictures of the rigs:

http://205.234.187.219/tab2010-02-19pic1.JPG
http://205.234.187.219/tab2010-02-19pic2.JPG

Joe and I both agreed that the second set was the better comparison due to a beach ball impact in the first couple songs of set 1 that repositioned the mics a bit. We reset them for set 2 and got a clean run. You can draw your own conclusions from the comparison, I don't want to seed your listening with thoughts of what our findings were.
 On to the question of running in close quarters, I have run on stage with my skm140 quite a few times now and it is extremely compact. The musicians really never even notice it's there if they weren't there when I set it up. The 184's footprint is much larger, obviously. I haven't found musicians to be intimidated by the on-stage size of it but in tight quarters, it's just not as practical. The 140's run as "actives" with the LC3 cables are the way to go.
 On to modularity, interchangeability of the capsules is a very nice feature, hypers, cards, omni's, figure 8, etc, in addition to the ability to run actives. Enough said on that really. Good stuff all around.
 Now, as far as the matching of them, yes, it is significant. By being a matched pair the tolerance is within 2dB of the other microphone in all frequencies. This means that an unmatched pair could vary by more than that and your ear is more likely to notice the difference. I have not run unmatched pairs, I'm sure some others on the boards here have and can give you good testimonials on how close unmatched pairs really are. As to whether they can be matched at a later date, I wouldn't think so, but I've never asked, so that's just an opinion.
 John Willet brings up an interesting point with the KM-A / KM-D series, but I would disagree with his assessment that you shouldn't buy km100 series since they're as he said, "old." Being old and still in service is a compliment to any microphone series, tried and true. These have been proven in all field situations for years and years by countless hobbyists and professionals. That's not saying you shouldn't look into the options he mentioned, he makes valid points about the ability to move to digital recording easily with the newer series.
 A quick aside to address the km84i's that have entered the discussion, some of the best mixes Joe and I have made are km84i's+km184's, in my opinion they perfectly compliment each other. The 184's lack a transformer, and the 84i's lack the frequency adjustment and in general sound darker(but warmer) than the km184's. Here's a 4 channel source with 84i's in X/Y and 184's on the stacks to hear how they mix:

http://www.archive.org/details/nma2009-02-07.flac16.4ch

A quick closing thought that goes along with what sparkey had to say. I would agree that if you are going to end up keeping your 184's and ultimately end up running 4 channels that you might grab a skm150 and get hypers right off so you have cards and hypers, as opposed to 2 sets of cards that are the same. As for his suggestion on the subcards to compliment the hypers eventually, that would be a great rig as well. Good suggestion sparkey, I may have to look into that myself.
 Alright, I've said enough... have fun with whatever you end up with!

[goodcooker]

If most of the taping that you do is onstage jazz ensembles you are not going to need hypers. A pair of cardioids or subcards are going to be the way to go for onstage jazz.

Keep in mind that the bodies (preamplifier/output stage), the KM100, are relatively affordable since the FET electronics are in the capsule. One new capsule is the price of a used pair of KM184s. Just someting to think about on your upgrade path.

That being said...I have a pair of KM100 bodies and a local taper has been kind enough to loan me his ak40, ak43 and ak30 caps on occasion. I really like the cards (in ORTF) and subcards (in NOS).

I think that Neumann's manufacturing tolerances are so tight that having them matched is not really neccesary. Al l the capsule, body and cable combinations I've used have been within one dB of each other.

[aysvideo]

Wow.  Thanks for all the thoughtful responses.  Since I'm relatively new to recording live music, all of you have brought up a lot of things I would never have considered.  If anyone has anything more they want to add, I'm all ears, or in this case, eyes.  Happy recording, everyone! 

[John Willett]

This is a complex question and I'll try to answer it the best I can from my experiences. I'll start by saying I own both a skm184 and skm140 set. I too, got the 184's and made the "logical progression" to a more complex setup once I knew why I needed it. I too, loved my 184's and literally bought the same mics again when I got 140's, knowingly.
 Page is correct that the km184 and the km140 are the same microphone, the differences are the ability to switch capsules(ak50,ak20,etc,etc ) on the km100 bodies, the ability to run "actives"[they are actually passives but that's another story entirely] by running with the LC3 cables in between the body and the capsule for a smaller "in-air" footprint as well as a -10dB attenuator on the km100 body. You are in luck for a comparison of the 184's and the 140's as taperjoe and I set out to try to do a comparison of the two in a live environment a while back by running the exact same rigs other than the microphones which were my matched pairs of km140's and km184's. Here are the two sources:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=532775
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=532788

pictures of the rigs:

http://205.234.187.219/tab2010-02-19pic1.JPG
http://205.234.187.219/tab2010-02-19pic2.JPG

Joe and I both agreed that the second set was the better comparison due to a beach ball impact in the first couple songs of set 1 that repositioned the mics a bit. We reset them for set 2 and got a clean run. You can draw your own conclusions from the comparison, I don't want to seed your listening with thoughts of what our findings were.
 On to the question of running in close quarters, I have run on stage with my skm140 quite a few times now and it is extremely compact. The musicians really never even notice it's there if they weren't there when I set it up. The 184's footprint is much larger, obviously. I haven't found musicians to be intimidated by the on-stage size of it but in tight quarters, it's just not as practical. The 140's run as "actives" with the LC3 cables are the way to go.
 On to modularity, interchangeability of the capsules is a very nice feature, hypers, cards, omni's, figure 8, etc, in addition to the ability to run actives. Enough said on that really. Good stuff all around.
 Now, as far as the matching of them, yes, it is significant. By being a matched pair the tolerance is within 2dB of the other microphone in all frequencies. This means that an unmatched pair could vary by more than that and your ear is more likely to notice the difference. I have not run unmatched pairs, I'm sure some others on the boards here have and can give you good testimonials on how close unmatched pairs really are. As to whether they can be matched at a later date, I wouldn't think so, but I've never asked, so that's just an opinion.
 John Willet brings up an interesting point with the KM-A / KM-D series, but I would disagree with his assessment that you shouldn't buy km100 series since they're as he said, "old." Being old and still in service is a compliment to any microphone series, tried and true. These have been proven in all field situations for years and years by countless hobbyists and professionals. That's not saying you shouldn't look into the options he mentioned, he makes valid points about the ability to move to digital recording easily with the newer series.
 A quick aside to address the km84i's that have entered the discussion, some of the best mixes Joe and I have made are km84i's+km184's, in my opinion they perfectly compliment each other. The 184's lack a transformer, and the 84i's lack the frequency adjustment and in general sound darker(but warmer) than the km184's. Here's a 4 channel source with 84i's in X/Y and 184's on the stacks to hear how they mix:

http://www.archive.org/details/nma2009-02-07.flac16.4ch

A quick closing thought that goes along with what sparkey had to say. I would agree that if you are going to end up keeping your 184's and ultimately end up running 4 channels that you might grab a skm150 and get hypers right off so you have cards and hypers, as opposed to 2 sets of cards that are the same. As for his suggestion on the subcards to compliment the hypers eventually, that would be a great rig as well. Good suggestion sparkey, I may have to look into that myself.
 Alright, I've said enough... have fun with whatever you end up with!

Very interesting post.....

I didn't say don't buy the KM100 series because they are "old" - I said that I suspect that they may get discontinued now that the KM-A/KM-D is out and is a very flexible system like the old KM100.  I don't see Neumann doing two interchangeable capsule series which are very close in sound.

The new series will have quieter electronics as the old KM100 series never got updated to the quieter design.

You also have the option of the KK133 omnis with ball heads with the KM-A/KM-D which is the same capsule as is in theM150 / TLM 50.

[page]

You also have the option of the KK133 omnis with ball heads with the KM-A/KM-D which is the same capsule as is in theM150 / TLM 50.

 

best reason I've seen yet for most of us here to use the new KM-A/D series. Remote TLM 50s, who would have thought we'd see the day.

[Gutbucket]

You also have the option of the KK133 omnis with ball heads with the KM-A/KM-D which is the same capsule as is in theM150 / TLM 50.

Very interesting.

If most of the taping that you do is onstage jazz ensembles you are not going to need hypers. A pair of cardioids or subcards are going to be the way to go for onstage jazz..

I know this sugestion stems from the use of mic pattern for configurations that control room & crowd sound and at more of a distance, and I don't disagree. Up close for instrumental jazz I typically run 3 or 4 stage-lip omnis when I can. But there are other reasons super/hyper patterns can be useful up close.  When dialing in stagelip/center Tetramic recordings of those same recording dates, of all the possible X/Y combinations of patterns & angles I usually settle on something close to a super/hyper-ish pair around 120 degrees apart. I'm ending up with that combination not because of direct/reverberant pickup so much as instrument balance and image.

[DSatz]

The KM 140 and the KM 184 have absolutely identical capsules and identical sound quality, but the electronics of the KM 180 series were revised a number of years ago while those of the KM 100 series were not, with the result that the less expensive microphones now have ~3 dB better dynamic range than the more expensive ones.

When I say they have "identical sound quality," I can't exclude slight variations among samples. Individual microphones can differ audibly in very careful comparisons. While aging is one factor in that, those who claim that "pair matching isn't needed at this level of product quality" are caught in what I consider to be wishful thinking.

Here's why I say that: If you compare two broadband audio signals that are mismatched in level by as little as 1/4 to 1/2 dB, or that have a 1/4 to 1/2 dB difference in frequency response across an octave or more of the audio frequency range, those signals can sound detectably different to a careful listener on a good playback system. But the manufacturing tolerances of the very best manufacturers of condenser microphone capsules (and Neumann is certainly one) are wider than that. The amplifiers (electronics) of the best manufacturers have narrower tolerances for freqency response than the capsules, but are still in the ±0.5 - 1 dB range as far as gain is concerned.

So let's just take a case in which one capsule of a pair is 3/4 dB more sensitive than the other (some so-called "matched pairs" may have a greater difference than that), and where one of the amplifiers of the same pair has 3/4 dB greater gain than the other one (also not at all uncommon). You can put either capsule onto either amplifier--one way, one mike will be 1.5 dB more sensitive than the other, while the other way, they're a dead even match. Now take any stereo recording that you've ever made and raise or lower just one channel by 1.5 dB. Does the result sound the same to you? And this is without even considering differences in frequency response, of which there always are some.

So it's unsurprising that a very critical listener who compares a KM 184 with a KM 140 might hear a slight difference--but that same listener very likely could also have heard a slight difference between two randomly chosen KM 184s or two randomly chosen KM 140s. That's the whole point of selected, matched pairs. Two-microphone stereo recording with coincident or closely-spaced microphones depends heavily on the match between the two microphones involved.

--With regard to trading "up" from KM 184s to KM 140s, keep in mind that alternate capsules for the KM 100 series actually cost more than a complete new KM 183 or KM 185! I don't have the current Neumann USA price list, but in the last one that I do have (from two years ago), a complete KM 185 lists for $1258 while the corresponding active capsule lists for $1550. Since the KM-A series was introduced after the Schoeps patent on active accessories had expired, Neumann's approach to capsule construction can now be more straightforward, and alternate capsules for the KM-A/KM-D series cost only about half as much as the "active" capsules of the KM 100 series.

So I'd second John Willett's suggestion of looking into that series instead, if you want to keep the sound quality that you have but add interchangeable capsules. (But John--are you sure that there's a KK 120 capsule in the KM-A/KM-D series? The intention was announced to have such a capsule a long time ago, but have you ever seen a real one?)

--best regards