Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Portable recorder for loud music  (Read 12163 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline skern49

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Portable recorder for loud music
« on: December 20, 2011, 11:57:56 PM »
Hi all,

Preface: I'm not that technologically savvy!

I'm in the market for a portable recorder (preferably no more than $200, though I can be persuaded), and I'd only be using the internal mics. I would use it primarily to record 1) myself, on solo guitar, which can be loud/distorted/piercing and 2) record rehearsals/jams of jazz and jazz-ish music. This can be loud as well, with a drum set, and I might be playing distorted here as well. I'm not playing heavy metal or anything, but I imagine snare drums and/or loud electric guitar could pose a problem. Thus, I'm mainly concerned with the maximum SPL.

I'm leaning toward the Zoom H2n, though I've been looking at similarly priced Tascams (DR-100, DR-40, DR-07MKII, DR-08, DR-05, GT-R1) and the Olympus LS-10 and Olympus- LS-11 (both discontinued?) and the Sony M10. Some of these (DR-100, LS-11, M10) are a little too expensive, but like I said, I can be persuaded, if they happen to be the best fit for me.

Anyway, as mentioned, I'm concerned with the SPL. I've read that a max SPL of 120 dB (which the H2n has) is plenty high, but I've also read that it is impossible to have absolutely no gain on the H2n, which might be a problem. Besides this, when jamming or rehearsing, you can never predict what arrangement the musicians will end up in, so I'd want the recorder to be flexible in this regard (one of the reasons I'm leaning towards H2n).

Audio quality is really the next priority. Honestly, the H2n probably has more features than I'd use (though I can see myself getting into the audio interface side of things), so that's not really why I'm going for it.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Sasha
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 01:29:44 AM by skern49 »

Offline TimeBandit

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 237
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 05:41:55 AM »
Tascam Dr-05 gets up to 125 dB Spl.

The olympus ls100 up to 140dB Spl.

Oly ls100 out of your budget range ... and don'T know if Tascam and Oly used the same definitions for measuring the SPL.

maybe safer a to get some discontinued recorder used for less then 100 dollars, maybe the old DR 07 and invest the rest into Batterybox / Preamp and external mics.
even with externals you have more options to place them to fit good with the room acoustics.
2015 rig: CA-11 -> CA-9100 -> PCM-M10
2016 rig: Sony PCM-M10 + SP-SPSB-4 microphone plug-in power supply +  SP-CMC8 with Low Sens mod
[backup: CA-9100 - Tascam DR-05 Firmware 2.0 + Yamaha Pocketrak W24]
video 2016: Casio EX-100 HS (same as Olympus Stylus1 - but much smaller - japan import not availiable in EU)

Offline earmonger

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
  • 20-20000 Hz
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 11:22:03 AM »
There are many complaints about the build quality of the Zoom line. If you have to replace the whole recorder it's not a bargain.

Meanwhile, the brick-like PCM-M10 is down to $229 at B&H.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

I have recorded loud concerts (Kings of Leon at Bonnaroo main stage)  with its internal mics. They sound good. It should be OK for your rehearsals unless you are completely caving in your eardrums. 120dB is an airplane landing nearby. Obviously you'd place the recorder at whatever distance you can get from the drums.

But as suggested above, take up a collection from your bandmates and get externals and a battery box. It doesn't have to be fancy:

Mics:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2
(with standard option, which is low-sensitivity)

I would suggest getting the extended warranty if they are leaving the rehearsal room, since they are on thin wires for stealth, susceptible to wear before the warranty expires. You can even skip the extended warranty if they are going to be babied.

Battery Box:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8
(no bass roll-off or other "upgrades")

I did just try the website and it's behaving a little wonky in my browser, which is unusual. If you have the same problem call them--they're actual human beings.

Mic-->battery box-->Line-in. Gain on the input volume knob at about 4. It will handle your band and give you better recordings than internals.

Total for mics/battbox is about $120 and will bring great joy.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 11:32:20 AM by earmonger »

Offline YYzepp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 08:35:05 PM »
Roland R-05.
Tony

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

Offline skern49

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 01:32:29 PM »
Thank you for your replies.

The thing is, I'm really looking to just use the recorder and its internal mics, rather than dealing with other equipment, even if it means compromising sound quality. I appreciate the idea, but in the situations I'm in, quickness and ease is of paramount importance.

Though I'm not too familiar with this, it seems that the Tascam DR-05, Sony M10 and Roland R-05, which (correct me if I'm wrong) all have omnidirectional mics, might not be as adaptable to different and unexpected musician arrangements? This is one of the reasons the H2n was attractive, because of the various mic settings. I guess it comes down to this: I'm not in need of perfect, professional sounding recordings. However, it is very important to be able to capture each instrument as equally as possible regardless, and perhaps despite of, the arrangement.

When you say build quality, do you mean it can't withstand abuse? That might be a problem, but I'm a pretty careful (read: paranoid) person.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:37:10 PM by skern49 »

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 06:09:40 PM »
What about Tascam DR2D ???
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline DigiGal

  • AES Associate Member
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Gender: Female
  • Stay healthy and safe!
    • DigiGal Internet Archive Recordings
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 07:19:32 PM »
You might be interested in Tascam's new product - iM2 iPhone & iPad Stereo Condenser Microphone if you've already got a compatible iOS device, it might suit your needs to get you started in recording.

http://tascam.com/product/im2/

   
Mics: AKG CK91/CK94/CK98/SE300 D-330BT | DPA 4060 4061 4266 | Neumann TLM 103 | Senn ME66/K6/K6RD MKE2 MD421 MD431 | Shure VP88 SM7B SM63L SM58 Anniversary Cables: Gotham GAC-4/1 Quad w/Neutrik EMC | Gotham GAC-2pair w/AKG MK90/3 connectors | DigiGal AES>S/PDIF cable Preamp: SD MixPre-D Recorders: SD MixPre 6 | Marantz PMD 661 Edit: 2011 27" 3.4GHz Quad i7 iMac High Sierra | 2020 13" MBA Quad i7 Catalina | Wave Editor | xACT | Transmission | FCP X 

Offline jbou

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 404
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 10:46:54 PM »
What about Tascam DR2D ???

I would check this out to. They can be had for about $120 now and I believe it has card mics, not omni

Offline earmonger

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
  • 20-20000 Hz
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 11:17:24 AM »
I just want to point out that cardioid mics are directional. If your band is set up in a circle in the rehearsal room, the cards are going to pick up much less of the sound behind them.

Omnis pick up in all directions. They work more like your ears.

The Zoom has a lot of internal mics but its basic X/Y stereo recording is cardioid (directional).  I guess its two-channel surround sound is something like omni.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/audio/hands-reviews/new-zoom-h2n-rewrites-book-portable-recording

It does have other possibilities but I doubt you would be using them. M/S and four-channel are aimed at film and broadcast location recording, getting files that can be tweaked in post-processing. I trust you do not want to be mixing down four channels after you record.

Anyway, cards and omnis both have their uses. If you are going to get a recorder and stick with internal mics, make sure that the pickup pattern is best for your setup.

And yes, do look at that Tascam Dr2D. Its internal mics are cardioids, FYI.  Its big selling point as a rehearsal recorder is that it makes two recordings at once--one 20dB quieter, so if you do overload at your usual levels, there's another undistorted copy as well.

The PCM-M10 and other recorders generally handle overloads with limiters, which (if you enable them) will kick in when things get too loud.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 11:26:43 AM by earmonger »

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3893
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 11:54:30 AM »
Omnis pick up in all directions. They work more like your ears.

Ears aren't really omnis, though.  They can be highly directional, especially at some frequencies...

Offline skern49

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 08:23:38 PM »
I just want to point out that cardioid mics are directional. If your band is set up in a circle in the rehearsal room, the cards are going to pick up much less of the sound behind them.

Omnis pick up in all directions. They work more like your ears.

The Zoom has a lot of internal mics but its basic X/Y stereo recording is cardioid (directional).  I guess its two-channel surround sound is something like omni.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/audio/hands-reviews/new-zoom-h2n-rewrites-book-portable-recording

It does have other possibilities but I doubt you would be using them. M/S and four-channel are aimed at film and broadcast location recording, getting files that can be tweaked in post-processing. I trust you do not want to be mixing down four channels after you record.

Anyway, cards and omnis both have their uses. If you are going to get a recorder and stick with internal mics, make sure that the pickup pattern is best for your setup.

And yes, do look at that Tascam Dr2D. Its internal mics are cardioids, FYI.  Its big selling point as a rehearsal recorder is that it makes two recordings at once--one 20dB quieter, so if you do overload at your usual levels, there's another undistorted copy as well.

The PCM-M10 and other recorders generally handle overloads with limiters, which (if you enable them) will kick in when things get too loud.

I suppose the reason I was leaning towards cards, and the H2n in particular, was because of flexibility. You're right, in the case where the musicians are scattered in some sort of circle around the room, omnis would work best. However, some sort of semicircle is much more common, or anything in between. Also, I plan on recording myself, solo. It seems to me that, taking into account all possible playing situations, then on average cards would be better suited. But maybe I have a faulty impression of how flexible the H2n is? Like I've said, I'm not too familiar with recording, but is it wrong to think that the M/S option would come in handy in my case? Or is it really only for those purposes you mentioned?

The M10 definitely looks good, but it might be just barely out of my price range. As for the DR2D, I did some minimal research and found that battery life seems to be an issue. And researching the H2n a little more, people echoed your previous point about its poor build quality. But if I had to choose between poor battery life and poor build quality, I'd choose poor build quality, if only because I completely overestimate my caretaking abilities. But hey, what can you do?

After some more thought, I really can't justify spending more than $200. And anyway, if I did, I'd go for the M10, so this basically rules out the Olympus recorders and the DR100. So that leaves the H2n and all the other Tascams (and maybe the Roland R-05? still need to look into that one...). I guess my question would be, for the cheaper Tascams (05, 08, and to a lesser extent 07 and DR2D), is there a notable difference in sound quality in the internal mics when compared to DR40, H2n, R-05, etc.? I've listened to a few AB tests (such as http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-sound-samples.html) and it seemed, for example, that the M10 is more dynamic than the Zooms and Tascams, but AB tests don't really represent real life situations, do they? I know I'm just blabbering by now, but I guess what I'm trying to ask is whether or not I should be concerned with such small differences that can only be appreciated in an AB test, when I'm certainly not trying to produce professional quality recordings. I merely want quasi-professional quality recordings to, say, upload to my website, use as demos, and (even more merely) to listen to after rehearsals for critiquing purposes. The quality of the mics is important to me only with regard to their ability to capture all instruments as equally as possible, no matter the setup, and their tolerance of high volumes. Hence my hesitancy to buy a recorder with omnis, and hence my attraction to the H2n, whose official website wowed (tricked?) me with claims of the recorder's high level of adaptability.

Thoughts?  :)

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 09:08:10 PM »
I feel your pain bro! If I were you tho, I would DEF choose the M10! Thats why I have 2 of them and a DR2D. The battery runtimes arent THAT BAD w/ the DR2D. I get around 4.5>5hrs w/ 2300mah Energizer rechargeables. Thats PLENTY of time for most shows ;)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline jbou

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 404
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 09:16:55 PM »
Since he plans on using the internal mics, does the M-10 provide additional benefit over some of the cheaper recorders he mentioned? I know the M-10 is great for what most people here do, but if only using internal mics, I feel like the M-10 might be overkill.

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 11:32:37 PM »
No, I would say its build quality and battery runtimes are the M10s major differences vs. whatever else is out there :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline jbou

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 404
Re: Portable recorder for loud music
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2011, 02:35:40 PM »
No, I would say its build quality and battery runtimes are the M10s major differences vs. whatever else is out there :)

But isn't the key how the M-10s internals stack up against the internals of the other recorders? I think there is a thread somewhere about the Tascam DR-05's internals being decent. How would you say the DR-2d's internals are? I know the M-10 is awesome, but for using the internals is it really worth paying 2 or 3 times as much as some of the other recorders? I'm just wondering because I think the OP can get what he needs without going over his budget.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.14 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF